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What Senator Brian Schatz Wants Climate Advocates to Know
Rob and Jesse talk Trump, contracts, and climate messaging with the lawmaker from Hawaii.
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Rob and Jesse talk Trump, contracts, and climate messaging with the lawmaker from Hawaii.
Rob and Jesse talk with former Ford economist Ellen Hughes-Cromwick.
Jesse and Heatmap deputy editor Jillian Goodman talk Canadian tariffs with Rory Johnston.
Rob and Jesse talk with Wharton’s Benjamin Keys, then dig into Trump’s big Day One.
Rob and Jesse go deep on the universe’s smallest molecule.
Rob and Jesse talk all things solar, steel, and cement with CREA’s Lauri Myllyvirta.
Answering your questions on AI and energy, the economics of solar, the Green New Deal’s legacy, and more.
Happy new year! On this week’s episode of Shift Key, Rob and Jesse answer some of the questions they’ve received from readers throughout the year. Hot topics include: What happened to the Green New Deal, and is the Inflation Reduction Act part of its legacy? Should U.S. policy prioritize solar manufacturing or solar deployment? And how can normal people keep AI-driven data centers from blowing up the grid?
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap, and Jesse Jenkins, a professor of energy systems engineering at Princeton University.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Here is an excerpt from our conversation:
Jesse Jenkins: If you build a tariff wall around America and you say, You must buy American-made panels or pay a huge tariff, we could build a domestic solar manufacturing sector, but it would by no means be required to be globally competitive. And if you were to remove those protections, it would probably immediately collapse. […] If you want to, you have a competitive agenda, you need to be developing a particular type of industry that can be competitive. And I think that Michael’s question hints that maybe that’s not that important in the case of solar because it’s just not a very high-margin business. It’s kind of a bad business to be in. There’s consistent overcapacity and margins are thin, if not non-existent.
Robinson Meyer: Jenny Chase At BloombergNEF, who is the master of solar manufacturing, consistently describes it as one of the worst businesses in the world because these Chinese manufacturers — and now, more broadly, these Chinese and Southeast Asian manufacturers — are just constantly competing each other out of business.
I will say, I want to attach an asterisk to globally competitive, right? There’s like a B part to that, which is, do you think dominating in this industry is going to create know-how that allows you to dominate future technologies we don’t understand yet?
Jenkins: Yeah, are there general-purpose manufacturing techniques or core technology components here that you think are going to be useful in a variety of other sectors? I think that’s true.
I look at batteries, for example, as a critical general-purpose technology for the 21st century, right? Like, good batteries are going to be in everything, and so the ability to produce those and to continue to innovate and be at the frontier there, it’s important to national defense. It’s important to the transportation sector. It’s important to consumer products. You know, it’s just a critical platform technology, and a lot of the innovations in material science and electrochemistry and other things that you need to develop for batteries have other broader applications in decarbonizing industry and producing other products.
So I think that’s a good example of a case where, even if you’re a little behind the technology or frontier, there’s a lot of value to trying to catch up there for, for broader reasons.
This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by …
Intersolar & Energy Storage North America is the premier U.S.-based conference and trade show focused on solar, energy storage, and EV charging infrastructure. To learn more, visit intersolar.us.
Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.
Jesse hosts a panel discussion at the annual meeting of Princeton’s Andlinger Center for Energy and the Environment.
The rise of artificial intelligence and the associated expansion of data centers is driving surging demand for new power supply. Earlier this fall at the annual meeting of Princeton University’s Andlinger Center for Energy and the Environment, Jesse sat down with a panel of experts to discuss how society can meet the growing energy demands of AI while staying on track broader decarbonization efforts.
How will we power the growing demand from AI and data centers? What role can nuclear power really play? Will AI lock us into a new generation of gas power plants? Are regulators prepared for what's coming? Jesse dives into all this and more with Allison Clements, former commissioner of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, Matt DeNichilo, partner at energy investment firm ECP, and Lucia Tian, head of clean energy and decarbonization technologies at Google.
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap, and Jesse Jenkins, a professor of energy systems engineering at Princeton University. Rob is off this week.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Here is an excerpt from the conversation:
Allison Clements: FERC, the agency, which, I was one of five commissioners, has jurisdiction over what resources sign up for and retire from participating on the grid. And over the last decade, two decades, what has happened is, as this 1.5 terawatts of generation have gotten in line, it’s just overwhelmed the interconnection system. The interconnection processes weren’t designed for anything other than central station, dispatchable, most recently gas plants, combined cycle gas plants, peaking plants, closer to load, you don’t need as much network upgrades.
There’s lots of room on the grid because there was an investment in the grid many decades ago. But now we’ve got this situation where there’s all these resources who want to sign up, and they can’t get on. In fact, this has been going on for a long time. And most of the supply resources waiting to get on today do have site control, do have the financial and commercial readiness. There’s some that we’re still clearing out from the days of the Wild West, where people would just sign up six interconnection applications and see what happened, which would cause a lot of problems for everybody else when they would drop out of those lines.
So, what do we do about it? FERC has passed a couple of different rules to clean up regional transmission planning. A comment about planning during this morning’s session that utilities plan so much — well, if we had been planning for an increasingly electrified economy 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, we would have a lot more transmission, a lot more space on the grid to give access to these resources.
We have taken action as an agency to try and fix that through one rule. We’ve also taken action as an agency to try and fix the interconnection lines themselves through some nuts and bolts requirements to make it harder to get through, so you don’t come until you’re ready to go. But those rules and policy changes that are very positive aren’t going to have impact for, let’s say, five years, seven years. I mean, the reality is we’re not going to be picking new transmission lines from these processes we’ve developed until at least 2029.
2024 — what do we do for the next five years, right? Even these really exciting new deals with SMR, advanced geothermal, we’re looking in the 2030 timeline. Well, the existing grid is really inefficient, and if we can use AI to improve it, that would be really, really important in validating and making this a positive cycle of affirmation.
The last thing I’ll say is, what are those inefficiencies? The lines between regions, the lines between PJM, which is the region we’re sitting in today, a grid operator, and the New York State grid operator, and the New England grid operator at the interties, the transfers, are very inefficient and they’re often counter to good economics. We have no hardware and software solutions, grid-enhancing technologies, advanced transmission technologies that can automatically double existing capacity, or existing room, extra room on the grid. We have surplus interconnection. We have the opportunity to put more resources behind existing points of interconnection and use that system more efficiently. So, the reality is to solve the power for AI, we need the AI to come back and help us do it.
This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by …
Watershed’s climate data engine helps companies measure and reduce their emissions, turning the data they already have into an audit-ready carbon footprint backed by the latest climate science. Get the sustainability data you need in weeks, not months. Learn more at watershed.com.
As a global leader in PV and ESS solutions, Sungrow invests heavily in research and development, constantly pushing the boundaries of solar and battery inverter technology. Discover why Sungrow is the essential component of the clean energy transition by visiting sungrowpower.com.
Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.