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A conversation with Travis Fisher of the Cato Institute.

This week’s conversation is with Travis Fisher, an energy policy analyst with the Cato Institute and one of my favorite people to chop it up with on Energy Twitter. I reached out to Fisher for a conversation about how he’s approaching the data center boom as a free market-minded wonk at a time when other figures on the so-called Right are calling for strict regulations on the sector. What I learned is that folks like Fisher are concerned about the scale of the buildout too, but their ideas and approaches wildly differ from the Tucker Carlsons of the world.
As always, our conversation was edited for length and clarity.
What’s your approach to the data centers debate in the Republican camp right now?
My bias is towards free markets. So as long as we’re talking about voluntary exchanges with property rights, it's fair game.
The sticking points for me are: is cost being socialized? Is there too much special treatment, like tax credits or overt subsidies or eminent domain? All of that stuff is problematic to me.
There is a world where we have massive expansion and it's still very consistent with my view of how things ought to go. But I’m not sure I love the approach I’ve seen on the siting end of things. There’s stories of private land takings, or private companies taking land, and that’s very problematic for me.
I see this as a huge growth area and a huge opportunity, so the idea of pausing even for a year feels like the wrong way to go about it. There’s a lot of parallels where folks want to slow things down but in hindsight it feels like a silly thing to stop progress.
[And] it really shines a light on conservatives versus free-market people. They’re not always the same.
How do you view data centers as an opportunity for building out the energy grid?
There’s two conversations here, really: improving the grid as we know it and expanding access to power off-grid.
Data centers are very large customers if we can free up supply to increase the quantity on the grid and then reduce average costs. That’s a whiteboard approach. But I can spend all day on why the whiteboard approach to economics on the power grid does not show up in reality. If you reduce average costs, what incentives do utilities have to pass lower costs onto consumers? They’ll just maximize shareholder returns. I don’t like the status quo utility model but there is a white board approach where if we believe in a natural monopoly thesis, then an expansion on the demand side moves you further down a downward sloping supply curve.
If you buy this argument, there’s an opportunity to cut costs. But I’m skeptical of that argument.
You’ve advocated for consumer regulated electricity reform in this situation. How does that relate?
This is the second prong, the off-grid solution. We have customers that want to move faster than the grid allows. We have a very regulated grid which is not compatible with the fast growth these customers want. And they have an enormous willingness to pay for that speed-to-power, so in terms of their opportunity cost, this sets up an opportunity to essentially build new power networks. If you’re a private utility and not a public utility, public utility regulations should not apply to you. And if you can build a private utility without oversight from Public Utility Commissioners or FERC, you’re free to innovate. Then this all becomes a new sector we can transfer learnings from back to the grid.
This idea – which I’ve seen you describe to my colleague Matthew Zeitlin – does it require policy change?
Yes, but it depends on what state. Ohio, Utah, and Oklahoma, maybe West Virginia… Those states already have systems kind of like this. It’s why you may be seeing private [energy and data center] networks there. In Ohio, at the New Albany site. In Utah, which is its own thing. But there are already state laws trending in this direction.
My view on this is you need a reform at the state level saying if you’re a private utility, you’re not under the jurisdiction of the PUC. At the federal level, it would mean the regs that do not apply to the bulk system do not apply to you.
So then, is your goal to create “power islands” here off grid using the free market?
The goal is to be as pro-consumer and free market and fast-moving as possible. This policy change would open that avenue and make it clear this is a greenlit activity. A thing that can happen and investors have certainty they won’t be side-swiped later.
I think we’re approaching the point where a lot of observers recognize the status quo is untenable. They say we had [utility] restructuring and now the status quo is untenable after restructuring, so let’s re-vertically integrate utilities or nationalize them. Those are all terrible, terrible, awful options. But the moment is so dire that a lot of bad ideas are on the table. I’m trying as hard as I can to parse the free market ideas from pro-utility ideas.
Vertical integration – where’s the momentum against that situation? I understand you’re trying to combat monopoly here, without being too heavy-handed from a regulatory level.
Even in a vertically integrated space, there’s pro-consumer reforms and consumer choice. Consumer-regulated electricity would do that in a clean and aggressive way but there is plenty you can do to tinker. How do we fight back against incumbent utilities? There’s many answers to that question but the last thing we should do responding to data centers is give them more control.
For example, the one thing we absolutely cannot do is reintrench the franchise. If a state says nobody else can be a utility in this state, why is that even a thing in the year 2026? That is backwards thinking, 100-year-old thinking we need to move on from.
My last question, since you keep bringing this conversation to utilities, is… why are we seeing so much upset in the utility sector?
I can only answer on my own behalf: They are monopolies. Since when was a monopoly industry friendly to free-market thinking? It’s historically been friendly to conservatives, because of the status quo bias, and I’m trying as best as I can to cleave the conservatives off being pro-utility because if you’re free market and conservative you shouldn’t like what they’re doing.
If you’re pro-consumer, you don’t like whatever the incumbent set up is. There’s an element of both the left and the right seeing this.
As rates go up, and as problems persist, we’re not getting anything more even though we’re paying more. It’s not a good environment for the utilities, who want to keep things the way they are.
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Senior executives at EDP, Apex, Pattern, and other large renewables companies did something remarkable in a recent court filing: They publicly criticized the administration.
Major energy developers are going all in against the Trump administration in court, in what appears to be the first time many are publicly challenging the president in spite of any potential risk of retaliation.
As I chronicled, Trump is now effectively blocking any new wind projects in the U.S., utilizing federal authority over American aerospace to stop what was once a run-of-the-mill approval process for the height of turbines through the Federal Aviation Administration. They’ve done this by using the Defense Department to gum up the interagency review process, with the Pentagon holding up bureaucratic machinations citing vague, alleged national security concerns. Earlier this month, regional renewable energy trade groups filed a lawsuit against the Pentagon and FAA seeking a judicial order akin to what they’ve already won against the Interior Department’s anti-renewables permitting freeze. The case argues Trump can’t hold these routine processes up because, well, they’re mandated by law to ultimately clear things if they meet basic specifications. It arrives as the Trump administration appeals a separate lawsuit against the Interior Department’s de facto permitting freeze, which was formally filed today.
Last week, the renewables trades filed a motion to immediately end this de facto national freeze. Attached to this motion: a murderer’s row of on-the-record statements from senior executives for large U.S. energy developers seeking to build their wind projects. I’ve honestly never seen anything like it – declarations railing against the Pentagon from top personnel for Pattern Energy, Apex Clean Energy, EDP Renewables, Triple Oak Power, Bordas Renewable Energy, Nova Clean Energy and Palmer Capital.
The declarations describe each company’s individual experiences struggling to get these routine height clearances. Adam Clark of Pattern Energy said the Pentagon’s inaction has “jeopardized committed capital, threatened project viability” and “delayed or blocked local and state permitting.” Thomas LoTuro at EDP Renewables said the military’s behavior “effectively halted” a “substantial portion of [EDP] North America’s project portfolio,” stalling some proposals for so long that it risks violating existing local road agreements for construction.
Some of these executives – such as those for Invenergy, Bordas, and Triple Oak – only describe themselves as representatives of the subsidiaries or LLCs developing individual wind projects affected by the freeze. Those filings do not make any reference by name to their parent companies. But quick background checks revealed each of these individuals holds broader development or management roles at the parent companies and I understand from conversations with individuals involved in this litigation that their statements were a significant step not taken likely.
“You are very observant,” one senior renewable energy industry insider told me when I asked about the executives’ statements.
This insider – who has firsthand knowledge about the litigation – told me the companies going on the record are largely doing so because of the extent they’re at risk. Often the height clearance for turbines is one of the final procedural steps before starting construction, and the incoming sunset of tax credits under the Inflation Reduction Act has made construction start dates key to projects’ budgets. Wind development has been drastically undermined by Trump’s permitting freezes. American Clean Power has said turbine orders halved in the first half of 2025, reaching their lowest levels since the COVID-19 pandemic lockdowns.
There’s also the sheer magnitude of the freeze. Before the Pentagon ruined the lives of wind developers, the Trump renewable permitting freeze was an obstacle companies could design around by avoiding wetlands, species habitat, and federal lands. It should’ve been a relief, for example, that the Trump administration dropped its legal defense of the president’s Day 1 executive order going after wind permitting. But the military’s hold on approvals had nothing to do with that and its scope reaches further than just the federal government, as height clearances are often needed for state, county, and municipal permits too.
Ultimately the Pentagon wind freeze represents an existential threat to renewable energy developers’ businesses and reputations in the investment community. Sean Stocker, head of development for Apex Clean Energy, stated in a declaration submitted in the Pentagon wind litigation that more than $133 million in project costs incurred were at risk of being lost, including over projects that had already been determined “do not pose an unacceptable risk to national security.” This has resulted in “impacts and losses” that are “not fully recoverable” even if the companies win in the litigation because of the damage to wind energy’s reputation.
“If Apex is forced to cancel projects as a result of DoD inaction, the resulting economic, reputational, and business losses could irreparably harm the company,” Stocker stated.
Since the start of Trump 2.0, wind energy developers have been skittish to publicly challenge the president in any way for fear of retribution. Trump could hypothetically make wind energy life hell in fresh new ways. Like for example, targeting energy companies critical of the administration in an ongoing crackdown on bird deaths at operational wind farms. A reasonable fear! “Companies are still risk averse and they’re afraid. The knock-on business impacts could hypothetically be worse than the loss on the wind project itself,” said the industry insider, who requested anonymity because they did not have permission to speak on the record about the litigation.
Based on the statements submitted in court, it appears energy companies are now emboldened after winning myriad legal battles against the administration via trade group campaigns and lawsuits filed by supportive Democratic attorneys general. Time will tell whether putting all their chips onto the table will work out in the end.
A representative for the groups involved in the litigation did not respond to a request for comment.
And more of the week’s top fights around development.
1. Apache County, Arizona – Renewables developers are trying to head off restrictions in a coveted region of the sun-swept Arizona desert.
2. Montgomery County, Alabama – A so-called “AI watchman” has won the GOP nomination for Alabama Public Service Commission, indicating how deeply frustrations run in red states against the nascent infrastructure buildout for artificial intelligence.
3. Goodhue County, Minnesota – The mayor of a small city at the center of a significant data center conflict abruptly resigned, indicating further municipal dominoes will fall because of the AI data center backlash.
4. Reno County, Kansas – We close this week’s Hotspots with a county rejecting a data center moratorium.
A conversation with Mark Muro, senior fellow at the Brookings Institute’s metro policy program
Today’s conversation is with Mark Muro, senior fellow at the Brookings Institute’s metro policy program. Too often I’m asked, what’s the version of a data center boom that people like? I reached out to Muro because he recently coauthored research into the ways communities and data centers can potentially work together to build more mutually beneficial and popular industry growth. The conversation wound up perfect for The Fight, so I had to include it in full.
The following Q&A was lightly edited for clarity.
What do you identify as the primary driver of the backlash we’re seeing to data center development in the United States?
They are potentially disruptive, large scale developments and also take on a talismanic quality where they stand for something. Both dimensions have really agitated people. On the one hand, often in rural communities there’s a lot of concern about energy use, price impacts, noise in some cases and so on, and for many communities these are a quality of life issue. For others, AI stands in for anxiety about jobs not coming. At a time when people are worried about jobs being displaced by AI, data centers are a convenient Other. They agitate and are focal points for a lot of concerns.
The data is pretty clear: a data center brings to a community an initial surge of construction jobs and then a quite modest level of operational jobs. A community might gain in the near-term several thousand jobs but then the long-term employment is welcome but not as large as had been advertised. Some of them can be decent jobs and we should acknowledge that.
What about tax revenue?
It can be significant but the deals are often worked out quietly. It’s hard to get a systematic take on that. A lot of that also depends on the skillfulness and aggressiveness of local public officials because all of it needs to be worked out in a deal. There are certainly tax benefits in some cases, but those are harder to pin down and seem to range.
Okay, so what is the pathway towards these projects being a more meaningful and positive long-term community investment?
That’s the right question because a data center isn’t inherently a negative for a place.
We think the need is first for communities to use the data center in its own aspirational plans. Places need to know what they want. They should be focusing on high-quality jobs, long-term employment, and in some cases even innovation gains for their local economies. Too rarely have communities taken an aspirational view.The deals are worked out on the fly, without a gameplan for the region.
Communities need to ask for more, require more, and come into these deals with their own priorities.
In some cases there have been communities that for a long period of time built up a number of data centers and felt like they gained benefits. Areas near the Columbia River in the Northwest seem to have worked with Microsoft and other companies to facilitate data center construction while also gaining quality employment and funding for schools. It is possible.
In our report we detail a number of places that have begun to put together these kinds of deals that are beneficial, often in places with a university nearby where there’s interplay on the technology front. I think in those cases, we may be beginning to see a rethinking of how these projects should go down and benefit.
Also, this year the backlash has become such a hurdle for the companies that they’re beginning to rethink how they operate. I think the jig is up for the bad old days and we’re going to see more thoughtful arrangements made in the next few years because everybody agrees, what’s been going down the past few years hasn’t been beneficial for any of the actors.
Do you see industry players picking up on a need to be more mindful of what a community needs? I’m thinking about Meta’s recent announcements around workforce training, for example.
Yes. Both for reasons of seeing what’s needed but also the need to make some concessions to really be a better neighbor. It’s forcing some really beneficial outcomes.
Workforce is one of the key aspects of how Microsoft has been far-sighted in Wisconsin, working with the state university and a community college and so on. I think hyperscalers are beginning to move in a more promising direction.
Do you think we’re still going to be having this same conversation a year from now? Things are moving so fast.
Regions are really up in arms about this. It’s become clear that in many cases they’re going to block development. So to the extent hyperscalers want to continue to build, they’re going to have to pursue a more community friendly way to do that.
I think the conversation is going to change. It’ll have to change if the industry wants to continue building capacity.