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A U.S. firm led by former Israeli government physicists, Stardust seeks to patent its proprietary sunlight-scattering particle — but it won’t deploy its technology until global governments authorize such a move, its CEO says.

The era of the geoengineering startup has seemingly arrived.
Stardust Solutions, a company led by a team of Israeli physicists, announced on Friday that it has raised $60 million in venture capital to develop technological building blocks that it says will make solar geoengineering possible by the beginning of next decade.
It is betting that it can be the first to develop solar geoengineering technology, a hypothetical approach that uses aerosols to reflect sunlight away from Earth’s surface to balance out the effects of greenhouse gases. Yanai Yedvab, Stardust’s CEO, says that the company’s technology will be ready to deploy by the end of the decade.
The funding announcement represents a coming out of sorts for Stardust, which has been one of the biggest open secrets in the small world of solar geoengineering researchers. The company is — depending on how you look at it — either setting out a new way to research solar radiation management, or SRM, or violating a set of informal global norms that have built up to govern climate-intervention research over time.
Chief among these: While universities, nonprofits, and government labs have traditionally led SRM studies, Stardust is a for-profit company. It is seeking a patent for aspects of its geoengineering system, including protections for the reflective particles that it hopes governments will eventually disperse in the atmosphere.
The company has sought the advice of former United Nations diplomats, federal scientists, and Silicon Valley investors in its pursuit of geoengineering technology. Lowercarbon Capital, one of the most respected climate tech venture capital firms, led the funding round. Stardust previously raised a seed round of $15 million from Canadian and Israeli investors. It has not disclosed a valuation.
Yedvab assured me that once Stardust’s geoengineering system is ready to deploy, governments will decide whether and when to do so.
But even if it is successful, Stardust’s technology will not remove climate risk entirely. “There will still be extreme weather events. We’re not preventing them altogether,” Yedvab said. Rather, tinkering with the Earth’s atmosphere on a planetary scale could help preserve something like normal life — “like the life that all of us, you, us, our children have been experiencing over the last few decades.” The new round of funding, he says, will put that dream within reach.
Yedvab, 54, has salt and pepper hair and a weary demeanor. When I met him earlier this month, he and his cofounder, Stardust Chief Product Officer Amyad Spector, had just flown into New York from Tel Aviv, before continuing on to Washington, D.C., that afternoon. Yedvab worked for many years at the center of the Israeli scientific and defense establishment. From 2011 to 2015, he was the deputy chief research scientist at the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission. He was also previously the head of the physics division at the highly classified Israeli nuclear research site in Negev, according to his LinkedIn.
Spector, 42, has also spent much of his career working for the Israeli government. He was a physics researcher at the Negev Nuclear Research Center before working on unspecified R&D projects for the government for nearly a decade, as well as on its Covid response. He left the government in December 2022.
Stardust’s story, in their telling, began in the wake of the pandemic, when they and their third cofounder — Eli Waxman, a particle physics professor at the Weizmann Institute of Science — became curious about climate change. “We started [with a] first principles approach,” Yedvab told me. What were countries’ plans to deal with warming? What did the data say? It was a heady moment in global climate politics: The United States and Europe had recently passed major climate spending laws, and clean energy companies were finally competing on cost with oil and gas companies.
Yet Yedvab was struck by how far away the world seemed to be from meeting any serious climate goal. “I think the thing that became very clear early on is that we’re definitely not winning here, right?” he told me. “These extreme weather events essentially destroy communities, drain ecosystems, and also may have major implications in terms of national security,” he said. “To continue doing what we’re doing over the next few decades and expecting materially different results will not get us where we want to be. And the implications can be quite horrific.”
Then they came across two documents that changed their thinking. The first was a 2021 report from the National Academies of Sciences in the United States, which argued that the federal government should establish “a transdisciplinary, solar geoengineering research program” — although it added that this must only be a “minor part” of the country’s overall climate studies and could not substitute for emissions reductions. Its authors seemed to treat solar geoengineering as a technology that could be developed in the near term, akin to artificial intelligence or self-driving cars.
They also found a much older article by the physicist Edward Teller — the same Teller who had battled with J. Robert Oppenheimer during the Manhattan Project. Teller had warned the oil industry about climate change as early as 1959, but in his final years he sought ways to avoid cutting fossil fuels at all. Writing in The Wall Street Journal weeks before the Kyoto Protocol meetings in 1997, an 89-year-old Teller argued that “contemporary technology offers considerably more realistic options for addressing any global warming effect” than politicians or activists were considering.
“One particularly attractive approach,” he wrote, was solar geoengineering. Blocking just 1% of sunlight could reduce temperatures while costing $100 million to $1 billion a year, he said, a fraction of the estimated societal cost of paring fossil fuels to their 1990 levels. A few years later, he wrote a longer report for the Energy Department arguing for the “active technical management” of the atmosphere rather than “administrative management” of fossil fuel consumption. He died in 2003.
The documents captivated the two scientists. What began to appeal to Yedvab and Spector was the economy of scale unlocked by the stratosphere — the way that just a few million tons of material could change the global climate. “It's very easy to understand why, if this works, the benefit could be enormous,” Yedvab said. “You can actually stop global warming. You can cool the planet and avoid a large part of the suffering. But then again, it was a very theoretical concept.” They incorporated Stardust in early 2023.
Economists had long anticipated the appeal of such an approach to climate management. Nearly two decades ago, the Columbia economist Scott Barrett observed that solar geoengineering’s economics are almost the exact opposite of climate change’s: While global warming is a “free rider” problem, where countries must collaborate to avoid burning cheap fossil fuels, solar geoengineering is a “free driver” problem, where one country could theoretically do it alone. Solar geonengineering’s risks lay in how easy it would be to do — and how hard it would be to govern.
Experts knew how you would do it, too: You would use sulfate aerosols — the tiny airborne chemicals formed when sulfur from volcanoes or fossil fuels reacts with water vapor, oxygen, and other substances in the air. In a now classic natural experiment Teller cited in his Journal op-ed, when Mount Pintabuo erupted in 1991 in the Philippines, it hurled a 20 million ton sulfur-dioxide cloud into the stratosphere, cooling the world by up to 1.3 degrees Fahrenheit before the sulfates rained out.
But to Yedvab, “sulfates look like a poor option,” he told me. Sulfates and sulfur oxides are nasty pollutants in their own right — they can cause asthma attacks, form acid rain, and may damage the ozone layer when in the stratosphere. For this reason, the International Maritime Organization adopted new rules restricting the amount of sulfur in cargo shipping fuels; these rules — in yet another natural experiment — seem to have accidentally accelerated global warming since 2020.
Yedvab and Spector anticipated another problem with sulfates: The atmosphere already contains tens of millions of tons of them. There is already so much sulfate in the sky from natural and industrial processes, they argue, that scientists would struggle to monitor whatever was released by geoengineers; Spector estimates that the smallest potential geoengineering experiment would require emitting 1 million tons of it. The chemical seemed to present an impossible trade-off to policymakers: How could a politician balance asthma attacks and acid rain against a cooler planet? “This is not something that decisionmakers can make a decision about,” Yedvab concluded.

Instead, the three founders tried starting at the end of the process, as they put it. What would an ideal geoengineering system look like? “Let’s say that we are successful in developing a system,” Yedvab said. “What will be the questions that people like you — that policymakers, the general public — will ask us?”
Any completed geoengineering system, they concluded, would need to meet a few constraints. It would need, first, a particle that could reflect a small amount of sunlight away from Earth while allowing infrared radiation from the planet’s surface to bounce back into space. That particle would need to be tested iteratively and manufactured easily in the millions of tons, which means it would also have to be low-cost.
“This needs to be a scalable or realistic particle that we know from the start how to produce at scale in the millions of tons, and at the relevant target price of a few dollars per kilo,” Yedvab said. “So not diamonds or something that we've done at the lab but have no idea how to scale it up,” Yedvab said.
It would need to be completely safe for people and the biosphere. Stardust hopes to run its particle through a safety process like the ones that the U.S. and EU subject food or other materials to, Yedvab said. “This needs to be as safe as, say, flour or some food ingredient,” Yedvab said. The particle would also need to be robust and inert in the stratosphere, and you would need some way to manage and identify it, perhaps even to track it, once it got there.
Second, the system would need some way to “loft” that particle into the stratosphere — some machine that could disperse the particle at altitude. Finally, it would need some way to make the particles observable and controllable, to make sure they are acting as intended. “For visibility, for control, for, I would say, geopolitical implications — you want to make sure you actually know where, how these particles move around, Yedvab said.
Stardust received $15 million in seed funding from the venture firm AWZ and Solar Edge, an Israeli energy company, in early 2024. Soon after, the founders got to work.
The world has come close to solving a global environmental crisis at least once before. In 1987, countries adopted the Montreal Protocol, which set out rules to eliminate and replace the chlorofluorocarbons that were destroying the stratospheric ozone hole. Nearly 40 years later, the ozone hole is showing signs of significant recovery. And more to the point, almost nobody talks about the ozone hole anymore, because someone else is dealing with it.
“I would say it was the biggest triumph of environmental diplomacy ever,” Yedvab said. “In three years, beginning to end, the U.S. government was able to secure the support of essentially all the major powers in solving a global problem.” The story is not quite that simple — the Reagan administration initially resisted addressing the ozone hole until American companies like DuPont stood to benefit by selling non-ozone-depleting chemicals — but it captures the kind of triumphant U.S.-led process that Stardust wouldn’t mind seeing repeated.
In 2024, soon after Stardust raised its seed round, Yedvab approached the Swiss-Hungarian diplomat Janos Pasztor and invited him to join the company to advise on the thicket of issues usually simplified as “governance.” These can include technical-seeming questions about how companies should test their technology and who they should seek input from, but they all, at their heart, get to the fundamentally undemocratic nature of solar geoengineering. Given that the atmosphere is a global public good, who on Earth has the right to decide what happens to it?
Pasztor is the former UN assistant secretary-general for climate change, but he was also the longtime leader of the Carnegie Climate Governance Initiative, a nonprofit effort to hammer out consensus answers to some of those questions.
Pasztor hesitated to accept the request. “It was a quadruple challenge,” he told me, speaking from his study in Switzerland. He and his wife frequently attend pro-Palestine demonstrations, he said, and he was reluctant to work with anyone from Israel as long as the country continued to occupy Gaza and the West Bank. Stardust’s status as a private, for-profit enterprise also gave him pause: Pasztor has long advocated for SRM research to be conducted by governments or academics, so that the science can happen out in the open. Stardust broke with all of that.
Despite his reservations, he concluded that the issue was too important — and the lack of any regulation or governance in the space too glaring — for him to turn the company away. “This is an issue that does require some movement,” he said. “We need some governance for the research and development of stratospheric aerosol injection … We don’t have any.”
He agreed to advise Stardust as a contractor, provided that he could publish his report on the company independently and donate his fee to charity. (He ultimately gave $27,000 to UNRWA, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees.)
That summer, Pasztor completed his recommendations, advising Stardust — which remained in stealth mode — to pursue a strategy of “maximum transparency” and publish a website with a code of conduct and some way to have two-way conversations with stakeholders. He also encouraged the company to support a de facto moratorium on geoengineering deployment, and to eventually consider making its intellectual property available to the public in much the same way that Volvo once opened its design for the three-point seatbelt.
His report gestured at Stardust’s strangeness: Here was a company that said it hoped to abide by global research norms, but was, by its very existence, flouting them. “It has generally been considered that private ownership of the means to manage the global atmosphere is not appropriate,” he wrote. “Yet the world is currently faced with a situation of de facto private finance funding [stratospheric aerosol injection] activities.”
Pasztor had initially hoped to publish his report and Stardust’s code of conduct together, he told me. But the company did not immediately establish a website, and eventually Pasztor simply released his report on LinkedIn. Stardust did not put up a website until earlier this year, during the reporting process for a longer feature about the company by the MIT-affiliated science magazine Undark. That website now features Pasztor’s report and a set of “principles,” though not the code of conduct Pasztor envisioned. They are “dragging their feet on that,” he said.
As news of the company trickled out, Stardust’s leaders grew more confident in their methods. In September 2024, Yedvab presented on Stardust’s approach to stratospheric researchers at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s chemical sciences laboratory in Boulder, Colorado. The lab’s director, David Fahey, downplayed the importance of the talk. “There’s a stratospheric community in the world and we know all the long-term members. We’re an open shop,” he said. “We’ll talk to anyone who comes.” Stardust is the only company of its size and seriousness that has shown up, he said.
Stardust is the only company of its size and seriousness working on geoengineering, period, he added. “Stardust really stands out for the investment that they’re trying to make into how you might achieve climate intervention,” he said. “They’re realizing there’s a number of questions the world will need answered if we are going to put the scale of material in the stratosphere that they think we may need to.” (At least one other U.S. company, Make Sunsets, has claimed to release sulfates in the atmosphere and has even sold “cooling credits” to fund its work. But it has raised a fraction of Stardust’s capital, and its unsanctioned outdoor experiments set off such a backlash that Mexico banned all solar geoengineering experiments in response.)
Pasztor continued to work with Stardust throughout this year despite the company’s foot-dragging. He left this summer when he felt like he was becoming a spokesperson for a business that he merely advised. Stardust has more recently worked with Matthew Waxman, a Columbia law professor, on governance issues through the company WestExec Advisors.
Today, Stardust employs a roughly 25-person team that includes physicists, chemists, mechanical engineers, material engineers, and climate experts. Many of them are drawn from Yedvab and Spector’s previous work on Israeli R&D projects.
The company is getting closer to its goals. Yedvab told me that it has developed a proprietary particle that meets its safety and reflectivity requirements. Stardust is now seeking a patent for the material, and it will not disclose the chemical makeup until it receives intellectual property protection. The company claims to be working with a handful of academics around the world on peer-reviewed studies about the particle and broader system, although it declined to provide a list of these researchers on the record.
As Yedvab sees it, the system itself is the true innovation. Stardust has engineered every part of its approach to work in conjunction with every other part — a type of systems thinking that Yedvab and Spector presumably brought from their previous career in government R&D.
Spector described one representative problem: Tiny particles tend to attract each other and clump together when floating in the air, which would decrease the amount of time they spend in the atmosphere, he said. Stardust has built custom machinery to “deagglomerate” the particles, and it has made sure that this dispersion technology is small and light enough to sit on an aircraft flying at or near the stratosphere. (The stratosphere begins at about 26,000 feet over the poles, but 52,000 feet above the equator.)
This integrated approach is part of why Stardust believes it is much further along than any other research effort. “Whatever group that would try to do this, you would need all those types of [people] working together, because otherwise you might have the best chemist, or make the best particle, but it would not fly,” Spector said.
With the new funding, the company believes that its technology could be ready to deploy as soon as the end of this decade. By then, the company hopes to have a particle fabrication facility, a mid-size fleet of aircraft (perhaps a fraction of the size of FedEx’s), and an array of monitoring technology and software ready to deploy.
Even then, its needs would be modest. That infrastructure — and roughly 2 million tons of the unspecified particle — would be all that was required to stop the climate from warming further, Spector said. Each additional million tons a year would reduce Earth’s temperature about half of a degree.
Yet having the technology does not mean that Stardust will deploy it, Yedvab said. The company maintains that it won’t move forward until governments invite it to. “We will only participate in deployment which will be done under adequate governance led by governments,” Yedvab told me. “When you're dealing with such an issue, you should have very clear guiding principles … There are certain ground rules that — I would say in the lack of regulation and governance — we impose upon ourselves.”
He said the company has spoken to American policy makers “on both sides of the aisle” to encourage near-term regulation of the technology. “Policymakers and regulators should get into this game now, because in our view, it's only a matter of time until someone will say, Okay, I'm going and trying to do it,” Yedvab said. “And this could be very dangerous.”
There is a small and active community of academics, scientists, and experts who have been thinking and studying geoengineering for a long time. Stardust is not what almost any of them would have wished a solar geoengineering company to look like.
Researchers had assumed that the first workable SRM system would come from a government, emerging at the end of a long and deliberative public research process. Stardust, meanwhile, is a for-profit company run by Israeli ex-nuclear physicists that spent years in stealth mode, is seeking patent protections for its proprietary particle, and eventually hopes — with the help of the world’s governments — to disperse that particle through the atmosphere indefinitely.
For these reasons, even experts who in other contexts support aggressive research into deploying SRM are quite critical of Stardust.
“The people involved seem like really serious, thoughtful people,” David Keith, a professor and the founding faculty director of the Climate Systems Engineering Initiative at the University of Chicago, told me. “I think their claims about making an inert particle — and their implicit assumption that you can make a particle that is better than sulfates” are “almost certain to be wrong.”
Keith, who is on the scientific advisory board of Reflective, a San Francisco-based nonprofit that aims to accelerate SRM research and technology development, has frank doubts about Stardust’s scientific rationale. Sulfates are almost certainly a better choice than whatever Stardust has cooked up, he said, because we have already spent decades studying how sulfates act. “There’s no such particle that’s inert in the stratosphere,” he told me. “Now maybe they’ve invented something they’ll get a Nobel Prize for that violates that — but I don’t think so.”
He also rejects the premise that for-profit companies should work on SRM. Keith, to be clear, does not hate capitalism: In 2009, he founded the company Carbon Engineering, which developed carbon capture technology before the oil giant Occidental Petroleum bought it for $1.1 billion in 2023. But he has argued since 2018 that while carbon capture is properly the domain of for-profit firms, solar engineering research should never be commercialized.
“Companies always, by definition, have to sell their product,” he told me. “It’s just axiomatic that people tend to overstate the benefits and undersell the risk.” Capitalistic firms excel at driving down the cost of new technologies and producing them at scale, he said. But “for stratospheric aerosol injection, we don’t need it to be cheaper — it’s already cheap,” he continued. “We need better confidence and trust and better bounding of the unknown unknowns.”
Shuchi Talati, who founded and leads the Alliance for Just Deliberation on Solar Geoengineering, is also skeptical. She still believes that countries could find a way to do solar geoengineering for the public good, she told me, but it will almost certainly not look like Stardust. The company is in violation of virtually every norm that has driven the field so far: It is not open about its research or its particle, it is a for-profit company, and it is pursuing intellectual property protections for its technology.
“I think transparency is in every single set of SRM principles” developed since the technology was first conceived, she said. “They obviously have flouted that in their entirety.”
She doubted, too, that Stardust could actually develop a new and totally biosafe chemical, given the amount of mass that would have to be released in the stratosphere to counteract climate change. “Nothing is biosafe” when you disperse it at sufficient scale, she said. “Water in certain quantities is not biosafe.”
The context in which the company operates suggests some other concerns. Although SRM would likely make a poor weapon, at least on short time scales, it is a powerful and world-shaping technology nonetheless. In that way, it’s not so far from nuclear weapons. And while the world has found at least one way to govern that technology — the nonproliferation regime — Israel has bucked it. It is one of only four countries in the world to have never signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. (The others are India, Pakistan, and South Sudan.) Three years ago, the UN voted 152 to 5 that Israel must give up its weapons and sign the treaty.
These concerns are not immaterial to Stardust, given Yedvab and Spector’s careers working as physicists for the government. In our interview, Yedvab stressed the company’s American connections. “We are a company registered in the U.S., working on a global problem,” he told me. “We come from Israel, we cannot hide it, and we do not want to hide it.” But the firm itself has “no ties with the Israeli government — not with respect to funding, not with respect to any other aspect of our work,” he said. “It’s the second chapter in our life,” Spector said.
Stardust may not be connected to the Israeli government, but some of its funders are. The venture capital firm AWZ, which participated in its $15 million seed round, touts its partnership with the Israeli Ministry of Defense’s directorate of defense R&D, and the fund’s strategic advisors include Tamir Pardo, the former director of the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad. “We have no connection to the Israeli government or defense establishment beyond standard regulatory or financial obligations applicable to any company operating in Israel,” a spokesperson for Stardust reiterated in a statement when I asked about the connection. “We are proud that AWZ, along with all of our investors, agrees with our mission and believes deeply in the need to address this crisis.”
One of Stardust’s stated principles is that deployment should be done under “established governance, guided by governments and authorized bodies.” But its documentation provides no detail about who those governments might be or how many governments amount to a quorum.
“The optimal case, in my view, is some kind of a multilateral coalition,” Yedvab said. “We definitely believe that the U.S. has a role there, and we expect and hope also the other governments will take part in building this governance structure.”
Speaking with Pasztor, I observed that the United States and Israel’s actions often deviate sharply from what the rest of the world might want or inscribe in law. What if they decided to conduct geoengineering themselves? “This gets into a pretty hairy geopolitical discussion, but it has to be had,” Pasztor told me. He had discussed similar issues with the company, he said, adding that “at just about every meeting he had” with the team, Stardust’s leaders hoped to “disassociate and distance themselves” from the current Israeli government. “Even when there were suggestions in my recommendations that the first step is to work through ‘your government’ — their thinking was, Okay, we will do it with the Americans,” he said.
He also discussed with the team the risks of the United States going it alone and pursuing stratospheric aerosol injection by itself. That would produce an enormous backlash, Pasztor warned, especially when the Trump administration “is doing everything contrary to what one should do” to fight climate change. “And then doing the U.S. and Israel together — given the current double geopolitical context — that would be even worse,” he said. (“Of course, they could get away with it,” he added. “Who can stop the U.S. from doing it?”)
And that hints at perhaps the greatest risk of Stardust’s existence: that it prevents progress on climate change simply because it will discourage countries from cutting their fossil fuel use. Solar geoengineering’s biggest risk has long seemed to be this moral hazard — that as soon as you can dampen the atmospheric effects of climate change, countries will stop caring about greenhouse gas emissions. It’s certainly something you can imagine the Trump administration doing, I posed to Yedvab.
Yedvab acknowledged that it is a “valid argument.” But the world is so off-track in meeting its goals, he said, that it needs to prepare a Plan B. He asked me to imagine two different scenarios, one where the world diligently develops the technology and governance needed to deploy solar geoengineering over the next 10 years, and another where it wakes up in a decade and decides to crash toward solar geoengineering. “Now think which scenario you prefer,” he said.
Perhaps Stardust will not achieve its goals. Its proprietary particle may not work, or it could prove less effective than sulfates. The company claims that it will disclose its particle once it receives its patent — which could happen as soon as next year, Yedvab and Spector said — and perhaps that process will reveal some defect or other factor that means it is not truly biosafe. The UN may also try to place a blanket ban on geoengineering research, as some groups hope.
Yet Stardust’s mere existence — and the “free driver” problem articulated by Barrett nearly two decades ago — suggests that it will not be the last to try to develop geoengineering technology. There is a great deal of interest in SRM in San Francisco’s technology circles; Pastzor told me that he saw Reflective as “not really different” from Stardust outside of its nonprofit status. “They’re getting all the money from similar types of funders,” he said. “There is stuff happening and we need to deal with it.” (A Reflective representative disputed this characterization, saying that the nonprofit publishes its funders and has no financial incentive to support geoengineering deployment.)
For those who have fretted about climate change, the continued development of SRM technology poses something of a “put up or shut up” moment. One of the ideas embedded in the concept of “climate change” is that humanity has touched everywhere on Earth, that nowhere is safe from human influence. But subsequent environmental science has clarified that, in fact, the Earth has not been free of human influence for millennia. Definitely not since 1492, when the flora and fauna of the Americas encountered those of Afro-Eurasia for the first time — and probably not since human hunters wiped out the Ice Age’s great mammal species roughly 10,000 years ago. The world has over and over again been remade by human hands.
Stardust may not play the Prometheus here and bring this particular capability into humanity’s hands. But I have never been so certain that someone will try in our lifetimes. We find ourselves, once again, in the middle of things.
Editor’s note: This story has been updated to include a response from the Reflective team.
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On ‘draconian’ water cuts, Tesla’s China business, and Italian nuclear
Current conditions: Slow-moving storms are set to pour rain on the American Northeast, drenching New York City • Temperatures in Phoenix are to top 113 degrees Fahrenheit for the next two days before the heat dome starts to ease • Across China, 11 weather stations broke their August hottest records.

Washington State officials ordered thousands to evacuate parts of Spokane over the weekend as “home after home caught fire and exploded into flames along with trees” as winds of up to 45 miles per hour fanned a “wall of flames,” according to The Spokesman-Review. Governor Bob Ferguson activated the National Guard to battle against what the newspaper called one of Spokane’s worst natural disasters in history. Major Gen. Gent Welsh, the adjutant general in charge of Washington’s Air and National Guard forces, said the fire conditions eclipsed anything he’d seen in his 38-year career. “When the sun sets and the sun rises, we are going to be in shock,” Welsh said at a news conference. By Sunday, more than 640 homes had been reduced to charred ash. Tom Clemo, the incident commander leading the firefighting effort, said it would take days to assess just how many properties were lost. “Probably the largest, most destructive fire in Washington’s history occurred yesterday afternoon,” he told the paper. The Pacific Northwest has been primed for a big fire since at least last year, as my colleague Jeva Lange, a native daughter of the region, wrote last year.
The Trump administration’s final plan to relieve the drought-parched Colorado River over the next decade puts Arizona first in line to slash its use of the freshwater. The proposal, finalized on Friday, departs from the decades-long rules that traditionally governed how the water was divided between states, according to E&E News. Instead, the Department of the Interior is set to issue smaller plans every two years to decide how the water supply is distributed. “This framework provides the flexibility to respond to changing hydrologic conditions while preserving the opportunity for the Basin States to continue working toward durable, consensus-based solutions,” Secretary of the Interior Doug Burgum said in a statement. But Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs, a Democrat, said the plan is filled with “unacceptable options that include the federal government forcing Arizona to take the majority of draconian water cuts.”
When Tesla entered the Chinese market, billionaire CEO Elon Musk designed the division to be easily separated from the U.S. business in case of geopolitical tensions. Now The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Musk is exploring a sale of the unit to clear the way for a merger between his electric auto giant and SpaceX, his rocket and satellite enterprise. “Obviously we can’t talk about, you know, combining companies and that kind of thing on earnings calls,” Musk told investors last week. “It [has] got to be done with the appropriate process.” On X, Musk — who has routinely beefed with the nation’s leading financial newspaper — called the story “fake news.” But the timing is notable. As Heatmap contributor Andrew Moseman wrote last month, China — along with Europe — has been fueling a resurgence in Tesla’s sales.
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American Electric Power has outbid a data center developer to buy a coal plant in West Virginia, the Financial Times reported last week. The utility inked a deal to buy the Longview coal plant located along the state’s northern border with Pennsylvania. The name of the data center company was not included in the story, but sources told the reporter Martha Muir it was a “household name” and a “competitive bidding process.” As I told you in June, the Trump administration is betting $850 million on a coal revival. But my colleague Matthew Zeitlin explained last year what the bigger problem is: Even the plants that get funding to stay open keep breaking down.
Base Power, one of the nation’s largest developers of residential battery storage, is raising money on a $13 billion valuation, The Wall Street Journal reported Monday. Co-founded by CEO Zach Dell, son of computer magnate Michael Dell, the three-year-old company’s model is to deploy tens of thousands of batteries at homes and tap those units to balance out the grid. “We have so much to do and so much room to grow, and we’re very early in the scope of the opportunity,” Dell said.
A mining company says it’s found America’s largest deposit of tungsten, a key metal needed for ammunition and weapons production. But NASA is blocking development of the resource in eastern Nevada. The problem, the Financial Times reported, is that “a third of the company’s claim covers a unique region used to track signals beamed to Earth by satellites in space,” cautioning that mining could disrupt the operations.
Rob talks with two senior Democrats about the future of energy in the U.S.
The Democratic Party’s climate and energy policy is at a difficult moment. Over the past year and a half, the Trump administration has attacked solar and wind energy, started an inflationary war, and repealed key parts of the Inflation Reduction Act. And about a year and a half from now, Democrats will pick a presidential candidate and pitch their energy and climate policies to voters again.
How are key Democrats feeling at this moment? Rob recently had a chance to sit down with two of the party’s most important energy policy makers — Senator Martin Heinrich of New Mexico, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Energy and Natural Resource Committee, and former Energy Secretary and Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm — for an in-person conversation in Washington, D.C.
On this episode of Shift Key, Rob chats with Senator Heinrich and Secretary Granholm, about fuel prices, the state of permitting discussions, AI data centers, and what each learned from writing — and implementing — the Inflation Reduction Act.
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News.
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Robinson Meyer:
This episode of ShiftKey is brought to you by Heatmap Pro. You already rely on Heatmap for daily reporting and commentary on the energy transition. That's why you listen to this show. Well, Heatmap Pro brings all of our research, reporting, and insights down to the local level. It's a software platform that tracks all local opposition to clean energy projects and data centers. It forecasts community sentiment, and it guides data-driven engagement campaigns. Go to heatmap.news slash pro to book a demo and see the premier intelligence platform for project permitting and community engagement. That's heatmap.news slash pro.
Robinson Meyer:
Hello, it's Friday, July 31st, and gas prices are still above $4 a gallon on average across the United States. That's about where they were a week ago when I had a very interesting conversation, which you'll hear on this show. But first, I want to kind of set the stage. So we are, I wouldn't say we're halfway through the Trump administration, the second Trump administration. We're close to halfway. And of course, the midterms are kind of spiritually halfway.
And I think folks right now are looking back and looking forward. They are trying to figure out what went wrong during the Biden administration, what we've learned from the Trump administration that could be carried into energy policymaking and climate policymaking in the future.
And I think they're also trying to figure out what the next stage of energy and climate policymaking will look like, especially in a world where electricity demand is increasing and where some of the biggest companies in the economy are trying to build artificial intelligence data centers. And so on that front, I had a very interesting conversation last week with two folks who have both been on ShiftKey before, but who I was able to bring together in a very cool way. Senator Martin Heinrich is the ranking Democratic member of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, which, as you know from last episode, is on one of the key committees negotiating permitting reform. Secretary Jennifer Granholm is the former Secretary of Energy, of course, and also the former governor of Michigan. Last week, they were both in D.C. on Capitol Hill. At the same time, I was able to sit down with them. We covered this looking back, looking forward topic, as well as permitting reform, fuel prices, and AI data centers. It was a fun conversation, and I don't know that it requires much more preamble than I've already given it.
I'm Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News, and it's all coming up on ShiftKey.
Well, Senator Heinrich, former Secretary Granholm, great to be here with you.
Secretary Granholm:
Likewise
Senator Martin Heinrich:
Great to be here.
Robinson Meyer:
I want to start, you know, yesterday, the Defense Secretary, as it were, announced that the cost of the Iran war is $37 billion, and we've already seen fuel prices go up. I know you wanted to start the conversation by talking about the huge spikes in energy costs that your constituents have seen, and I just wanted to ask at the beginning, you know, what are you hearing here? Because it does seem to me that at this point, I mean, there was an initial spike after the war, went back down, and now they're steadily climbing up again. And so, you know, obviously New Mexico is also a producing state, but what are you hearing?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
Just that people are feeling the pinch on energy prices. Everywhere. And so it's across all forms of energy. And this is an administration who has chosen to take actions that have negatively impacted prices in so many different sectors. So, you know, what they're doing in the electricity sector by not permitting all this new generation that is just waiting to be connected to the grid, that's raising electricity prices. You have the war in Iran, which has constrained international oil and gas supplies, and that is raising both natural gas, gasoline, and also diesel costs. And that diesel cost is really important because the reality is once you run up the cost of diesel, then you see that every place that things move. You see it immediately in the grocery store because it costs more to move food from one part of the country to the other. You see it in building supply prices. What they're doing, making old coal plants that are ready to shut down, stay on the grid, that actually costs money. And those costs are being passed on to consumers in those places. And so no matter where you look in the energy map, what they're doing is increasing costs. And I hear about that at the grocery store, at the gas station, wherever I go really, it's like energy prices are going up across the board.
Robinson Meyer:
Secretary Granholm, I'm curious, you know, at this point, we've had about a year and a half of watching the new Department of Energy in action. And I wonder what stood out to you about how it, we're going to do some retrospective in a bit, but I want to start by asking what has stood out to you about how it's operating? One, what you don't like, and maybe one thing you like, if there's anything.
Secretary Granholm:
Well, I will say, you know, there was a big diaspora of the team, incredibly smart team that had to leave or that chose to leave because of some of the things you're describing. I will say I'm going to give you a silver lining on some of this, because I really do think that the actions of this administration have unintentionally caused a rush to clean energy and other solutions. So the OBBB, One big, beautiful bill, didn't take away the tax credits for batteries.
So it used to be, you know, solar plus storage, solar plus storage. Now it's solar plus storage. And, you know, it's great that those tax credits still exist and you're seeing developers really take advantage of it. Putting a cliff on when the solar tax credits and the wind tax credits expired, obviously caused a rush for developers to build out. So the amount of gigawatts that are being added to the grid, I mean, it's so ironic. At the end of 2024, when we added almost 60 gigawatts of clean power to the grid and batteries, we thought that was going to be the top because of what the administration was doing. But the unintended consequences of all of this action is that this year is going to be over 80 gigawatts added to the grid of clean power and batteries. Amazing.
So I'm glad that some of that foundation still exists and that the private sector completely understands the importance of this move. And I will say because of the war, it only accelerates the move toward non-fossil fuel, non-people of local powers, energy sovereignty, and that means clean power.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
And we've seen other economies accelerate those shifts, seeing what's going on in the Strait of Hormuz, and in some cases, in China's case, really anticipating it, moving large portions of their economy from molecules to electricity.
Robinson Meyer:
Do you have any theories? I'm injecting this, but do you have any theories for why? I feel like after the Strait of Hormuz closed... There were doomsday predictions about where oil would go, and obviously oil prices increased significantly, but they didn't hit $150 or $200 a barrel. Do you have any theories or hypotheses about why that is?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
It's a couple of things. There's more buffer in the system than we used to have. China built up big reserves ahead of time. There are the commercial reserves. There's the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. We haven't exhausted those buffers. So that really has worked to mitigate. You know, prices are bad. They're just not as bad as some of the predictions. We're not at the bottom, though, because the straits closed again. And those commercial reserves are now, after a little bump when the MOU happened, was announced, they're ticking back down. And there is a point at which the system stops working like it's designed to work. You need a certain amount of oil in the system. And we're getting closer to that than I think any of us would want to be. And then you're one hurricane away from really bad prices.
Robinson Meyer:
So obviously one way to lower prices or one potential way to lower prices over the long term is permitting reform. I know you're in negotiations right now about a deal here. So can you give us an update on where that stands?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
I don't want to get in the weeds on it because the negotiations are actually very active right now. But I do think there's a path there. And I think both Republican and Democratic leaders in the relevant committees want to get to yes on permitting. I think the biggest wild card is actually and challenge is the White House because the White House continues to do things that sort of poison the well. They did that with Historic Preservation Act, new regulations this week. They've done that with stop work orders on offshore wind, with the Department of Defense stopping the process, processing very straightforward onshore wind permitting projects with winded solar on public lands. I mean, time and time again, they have entered this debate in ways that have not been healthy and haven't been helpful for getting a product across the line. So we're working hard. We're trying to negotiate a middle ground, but I worry about the impact of the White House.
Secretary Granholm:
I will say, though, that the utter frustration about waiting for Congress, you know, present company accepted, to get permitting reform done suggests that there may be another path. And, you know, I know that there is an effort on the part of hyperscalers or AI companies to look at how can AI do this instead of waiting for Congress. So, for example, I think you probably covered this, the effort that Google has through tapestry at PJM, the notion that you should be able to take the interconnection cue and move it more quickly because you can do concurrent studies, etc., rather than all these consecutive wait in line, blah, blah, blah. And if you can do that. There, or if you can do it with permitting and respect the intent of NEPA or the National Historic Preservation Act and use AI to get some of this done and accelerate, then you might end up leapfrogging over Congress, which doesn't mean that you shouldn't be doing it. But I just worry that...
Senator Martin Heinrich:
I do think the interconnection cues are a perfect place to apply machine learning, AI, advanced modeling. And we had all five FERC commissioners in front of us today on the Energy and Natural Resources Committee. And one of the commissioners walked through an example where they were able to do, historically what had been an over 600-day analysis of adding this generation to the grid became a 10-day process. And so we should absolutely do all that. I still think we're going to need to reform permitting and be able to get to yes or no faster and make sure that those permits flow.
Secretary Granholm:
Your mouth to God's ears.
Robinson Meyer:
I do wonder with the AI acceleration of permitting, it seems like there's a lot of places to speed things up. It also seems like it's only so long until... We are already used to these massive dockets and huge studies for a lot of energy projects or infrastructure projects. It does seem like AI only increases the ability to expand those dockets and make every study bigger and allow more people to file more documents that then have to be reviewed. It just seems like a both ways thing.
Secretary Granholm:
It could be, but hopefully at least you can truncate the amount of time that it should not take 10 years for a transmission. Or 17. Or 17 frame in your case. But yeah, it's insane.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
There's only so much capital in that world and so many competent developers. And so I think it will generate additional demand. But the advantage of being able to do modeling quickly is really, it seems like a very unlinear advantage. I think we're going to see a lot of juice for the squeeze from that.
Secretary Granholm:
I love what you have introduced though, the Connect and Manage Act. Can I ask him this question. I don't mean to take your, you probably had that on your list, but I mean, describe what that is because it's so smart to be able to jump the, jump the queue essentially, if you agree to certain conditions.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
Yeah. So, I mean, we've, we've always been modeling based on what's the worst case scenario. What's the worst hour of the worst month when, you know, when in the middle of July, everybody's coming home and turning on their air conditioning at the same time. There are vast stretches of time when the grid just has a lot more capacity on it. And so what our bill says is if you will commit to curtail power when the grid is full, you can just plug into the grid and we'll let you sell power whenever the grid still has excess capacity. But you're going to have to dial it down when it doesn't have that capacity. And so that's something that we've seen work in ERCOT and I think has huge potential for getting a lot more generation on the grid quickly if we apply that nationally.
Robinson Meyer:
Do you anticipate a law like that or some kind of policy like that being in a permitting reform deal this year or is that a future policy you'd like to see?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
I mean, we'll have the conversation. We're rolling this out, obviously, late in the game. And I'm a big believer in get what you can done in any given Congress. Don't wait for the next Congress and think it's all going to be perfect. It never is around here. So we'll get everything we can done in this Congress. That's my position. And if that's not part of the mix, then of course we're going to... Permitting reform is not going to go away.
Robinson Meyer:
And then one more on this, just because I have a news responsibility, which is what would a timeline look like? I once heard the timeline was you'd want to see text by August recess, but that's pretty soon.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
And we're, we're very thick in the negotiations right now. And whether or not we could land something before August, I, you know, I'm not going to speculate, but my goal has always been just to get something out of this Congress. I don't care when that happens, but I'd like to get a product out of this Congress.
Robinson Meyer:
Secretary Granholm, I wonder what watching now 18 months of the Trump administration, you think, you know, we should have done this differently during the Biden administration, or there's an issue here that I would have handled differently, or now that I see what's happened and how they've approached governing.
Secretary Granholm:
Yeah, it's such a, it's a great question because I think every one of the cabinet officials looks at what has happened in the Trump administration and says, man, I should have broken more eggs, not more laws, but I should have really insisted on much more quicker, all of the negotiations that took forever on getting the treasury guidelines and all of that. We should have, I mean, like a cannonball should have shot through. And I think that's a good lesson that will be taken away for the next administration.
Robinson Meyer:
And why didn't it happen?
Secretary Granholm:
Because there's process, because there's lawyers, because, you know, I mean, it just, There was a sense that this is the way you do things, et cetera.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
And we accepted it.
Secretary Granholm:
Yeah, we all accepted it.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
And we shouldn't have.
We should have built programs that don't take two years of analysis. And that is definitely the lesson that I took from the rapid...the things that were fairly straightforward, like the tax credits, were able to move quickly. But there were whole programs like the Green Bank that got stood up just in time to be turned off.
Robinson Meyer:
Is that a drafting failure or an implementation failure?
Secretary Granholm:
I mean, to be fair, there's a lot in implementation, but there are a lot of rules around all of this that have certain timelines, et cetera. So I think taking a look at all of that, I mean, Democrats have been very, we're going to follow the rules and we're not going to bust, you know, we're not going to break norms. And I think this administration has broken a lot of norms and shown that you can get stuff done more quickly. Now, I don't like what they've gotten done quickly, but nonetheless, I think it's a lesson for us about challenging the status quo.
Robinson Meyer:
I want to just observe a kind of interesting dynamic here, which is that I think as Trump has taken steps that have driven up energy costs, I think we all agree, it's making costs higher than they would be otherwise. Certainly the Iran war, likely the permitting obstacles that they've put up to wind and solar tariffs. He has driven up. I think his administration has driven up energy costs. And we hear a lot from Democrats about how that's bad. It does seem a little bit to me like there's a bit of an effort to play both sides because I think when right now Trump is doing things that are driving up costs and costs are going up and Democrats get in office and they have a lot of different goals for the energy system and some are procedural and some are about environmental goals and that tends to slow things down. People take a long time to approve, say, oil and gas permits. And so do you think that watching the Trump administration, the Democrats are now ready to embrace or looking at, let's say, an affordability first or affordability only agenda where it's like, we'll take clean, we'll take fossil, we'll take whatever, as long as costs are low?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
I think what Democrats should always keep in their minds is that you cannot, create and manage the energy transition on the backs of consumers. They already have their plates full. They're doing everything they can to make our economy work. We can't ask them to do more, especially in this environment. That doesn't mean we quit managing that transition. It just means we can't ask consumers to pay for it.
Secretary Granholm:
But if we're to be honest, the cheapest energy is clean energy. And so if you want to go cheap, then let abundant clean energy be prolific and deployed throughout the land and it will bring rates down.
Robinson Meyer:
Let me just push back a little and say, I think watching, let's say, the Trump administration revoke permits and block permits and block construction for wind and solar, it does put you in mind of the Keystone XL pipeline, which was not necessarily an affordability project, but which Democrats did block. Now, there were good climate reasons to block it.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
But it was also an export project. And the reality is exports raise costs. They just do. Like we have... You can export a certain amount of natural gas, and that can be okay. But when you hit a certain threshold, you're going to start to see natural gas prices increase. And that's why we built into those exports the fact that the Secretary of Energy is supposed to sign off on a project-by-project basis. It wasn't meant to be infinite. Because if you do make it infinite, eventually exports, by virtue of those exports, you're actually going to raise domestic prices for both consumers and for manufacturers. And they've taken the opposite approach, which is let's export as much as we can. At a certain point, you see that have an impact on the costs and on the jobs that those manufacturers create, right?
Secretary Granholm:
Right. I mean, the studies that have been shown, I mean, it's the question of supply and demand, right? If in fact the capacity fills everything that's been authorized, you will have doubled the amount of exports of natural gas. And of course, even though we have such an abundant supply of natural gas in this country, that is going to put upward pressure on prices.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
It connects us to the international price market. And we've seen this before in places like Australia. We don't want to be connected to that because those prices are much higher. There's more advantage in having moderate prices here that can really incentivize good jobs in things like manufacturing.
Robinson Meyer:
Secretary Granholm, I wonder, we've seen this explosion, I feel like just dated almost to when the Biden-Trump transition happened in AI data centers and in electricity demand. I know you're working, you're thinking about these issues right now. So I guess take us to the end of your time in government versus what's happened since then. And was this scale of demand forecast?
Secretary Granholm:
No, no. I mean, you guys noted that Bloomberg New Energy Finance increased their projection, their forecast for how much gigawatts are going to be necessary to feed the beast by 2035. And just from December of last year, of 2025 to now, it has increased by 80%. I mean, it's voracious, the appetite for power. So it is really quite astonishing. Now, will all of that come to fruition? Will the chips be more efficient? Are these going to be sited because of the NIMBY issues? All of those are legitimate questions. But if the demand projections are accurate, it is going to require a massive amount of buildout of power.
Robinson Meyer:
What's the right way to make sure as much of that power is as green as possible? Because I think right now it's going to be met by gas.
Secretary Granholm:
Maybe or maybe not. I mean, is that the smart way to go when, you know, it's mind blowing to me a little bit that there's all this assumption that it's all going to be natural gas when, first of all, you have to have the infrastructure for natural gas or you have to build it out. It takes a lot of time to build out that infrastructure. Secondly, the wait for natural gas turbines, as everybody knows, is years. So the timeframe of getting natural gas turbines and a natural gas plant is long, whereas the timeframe for getting solar and batteries you can get within months, say, rather than years. So, you know, I don't necessarily buy the fact... I mean, maybe natural gas ends up being a backup power. Maybe the, you know, Bloom Energy, et cetera, ends up being your backup source. Even that, when you look at the technology associated with long-duration energy storage and how that is really coming to bear, I mean, there's, you know, example after example of that. Or, you know, geothermal, enhanced geothermal, or, you know, I mean, there's any number of solutions that end up being clean and don't incur the wrath of citizens as much as fossil fuel solutions.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
It's worth considering, too, that if we do see the level, the scale of natural gas generation that some people are proposing, it will markedly increase the cost of gas for other uses. So if your house electricity is generated by natural gas, those prices are going to go up. If you heat your house with natural gas directly, those prices are going to go up. If you're a manufacturer and you're using gas, those prices are going to go up. So it is in our interest to find cheaper, cleaner sources of power to power as much of this transition as we possibly can.
Robinson Meyer:
How do you balance making... The big investments that I think the power system needs or the energy system needs to meet future energy demand, which is going to come from data centers or electrification or manufacturing. I think even if you curtain off data centers and be like, this is a bad energy use, we're going to need a lot more energy in the future to do a lot of things we want to do. How do you balance like the long-term need to make big investments in the energy system or the power system to meet future demand versus the need to keep costs low in the short term? Because right now, the way we pay for future big investments is to raise costs today.
Secretary Granholm:
Right, right. You rate base it. Yeah. But what if these data centers that come on are required to pay for those infrastructure upgrades, which, you know, everybody's talking about. The president has a pledge that he's having people sign. Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan has a pledge. I mean, everybody's talking about, in fact, you guys just, you guys, meaning Congress just passed out of the, you know, E&C committee, a rate payer pledge, you know, great. Let's get a pledge that the hyperscalers pay for the upgrades, that they bring clean power, that they have responsible, if not replenishment water use, using advanced technologies to be able to do that.
You know, maybe you take down some of the opposition, but maybe you also make the grid stronger as well. Maybe these data centers become grid assets because they are supplying power back to the grid, or they have created additional battery usage to make the grid more reliable, or they inject power when the grid is at maximum capacity. But more than that, those are kind of table stakes for data centers, I think. What if they brought more than that even? What if, you know, in community benefit agreements, what is the stake that the community has? What do they give to the community? And to me, this is where the most interesting part of this conversation could happen. Not only should they pay for all those upgrades, but maybe they also pay for distributed energy resources, for home solar and storage, for maybe they pay help to subsidize EV batteries, EV vehicles and use the batteries to create a virtual power plant for a portion of their capacity needs to get that flexibility. Now the community has a stake. They get something. They get a battery in their home or they get a heat pump or whatever. And they, you know, I mean, it's interesting. Voltus has done this with the PJM market. They're going to bid 100 megawatts of distributed capacity into the PJM capacity auction. How great is that?
Because they're going to cobble together enough to create a virtual power plant. Why aren't we looking at that? Why aren't we looking at using the grid more efficiently with the resources we have? And what Voltus is doing is taking existing assets and cobbling them together to create a virtual power plant. But what if you created, what if the hyperscalers paid for new stuff in a community that they're coming into? So I think there's a real opportunity here.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
I think given the premium that a lot of these developers have been willing to pay, that you can reduce price pressure on consumers and you can invest in more infrastructure.
Robinson Meyer:
What should this look like in policy? Because I think there's a lot of good ideas. There's a lot of goals. Obviously, the Trump administration has advanced their ratepayer protection pledge, which is kind of all of this stuff, but without emphasizing clean as much or at all. There's still a ton of demand to build data centers, which the policy to... Focus that demand look like and what goals should Democrats bring to the process of regulating and shaping the data center buildup?
Secretary Granholm:
There may be a sort of floor that the federal government puts into place and then states take it to the next level. So maybe the ratepayer protection pledge, maybe the table stakes, as I call it, are happening at the federal level and they're required to meet those. And I think many of the responsible tech companies are willing to do that. And then the states go and follow behind. Maybe they require buffer zones. Maybe they require community consultation. And they have a menu of options that a hyperscaler might be able to bring to make not just a community home, but make a community better than when the hyperscaler got here. Politically, this is hard because there's such an aversion and people can't imagine that this is enforceable and that you trust them, that they're going to be transparent, that transparency issue is a real big deal. If I were running for office right now, I'd say, no data centers in my state unless you do these five things. And if those five things are done, then we'll have a conversation.
Robinson Meyer:
What did you think of, sorry, say your five things. Say your five.
Secretary Granholm:
Which is what Gretchen Whitmer did in Michigan. And she's asking the legislature to codify that or the Public Service Commission in Michigan to do that. That's what needs to happen.
Robinson Meyer:
I interrupted you. You should say the five things.
Secretary Granholm:
Well, so making sure that you don't socialize the cost to the rate base, bring your own clean energy. You have a long-term commitment, so there's an exit fee if you go early. You have responsible water use. You are flexible. You agree to flexibility within the system just as a starter. But you must enter into a community benefit agreement. And that community benefit agreement has to be in consultation with the community in question. And it might include jobs. It might include job training and apprenticeships. And there's a whole menu of things that might be possible that I think hyperscalers would be willing to look at.
Robinson Meyer:
Are you worried, if you were to do this, that all those... A lot of data center developers look at that. They go, thank you. That's tough. We're going to take this to Texas and just build it.
Secretary Granholm:
Well, could be. Plop it down there. But honestly, local communities, no matter where they are, I mean, there's been over 100 moratoria passed. Yeah. Local communities in red states and in blue states.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
The fishworks are coming out in Texas.
Secretary Granholm:
Too. This is my message to these local folks. You have leverage. You have leverage right now.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
You've got to be transparent, and you've got to bring real value, which is what the secretary is talking about, to the community from day one.
Secretary Granholm:
Raise the bar. Raise the bar for all of them, because there's some data center companies who might not be eager to do this. But if you raise the bar as a community and insist on it, you know, I mean, maybe they'll go to a place, another place. But maybe, just maybe, that other place is going to be insistent on using its leverage as well.
Robinson Meyer:
Last question. So... The IRA. It was a big bill. And they both played a major role in implementation or writing or passage. It tried to electrify a lot of the economy. And obviously, it did a lot of good. Maybe it wasn't going to meet its targets, had everything remained in the case. It's impossible to know what would have happened with the Harris administration. It was trying to electrify more of the economy and create this big surge of electricity. Now we have the data center boom. Huge demand for electricity And a ton of electricity infrastructure is getting built out now on the back of the demand boom. What are the lessons from the IRA that we should take? I mean, you both experienced the IRA. You both experienced, I would say, the IRA era of governance. So what should we learn from that and apply to the data center boom?
Secretary Granholm:
I would say, well, to the data center?
Robinson Meyer:
Or to the next few years, yeah.
Secretary Granholm:
I would like to see a revising of the Inflation Reduction Act. I mean, a rebirth of the pieces that were carved out. So tax credits for solar and for wind, et cetera. I'd like to see an investment tax credit for the grid as well. But I think the lesson in terms of implementation was pretty clear that we just didn't do a good job of selling it. You know, I mean, it took too long. We did a lot of ground breaks, but we didn't do a lot of ribbon cuttings, meaning people weren't hired yet for all of these announcements that were made. And so people didn't feel it on the ground. And so they didn't attribute it to the administration from a political point of view or certainly to the Inflation Reduction Act, which people, everyday citizens, have no idea what that was. So doing a much better job in getting the word out about why is this factory opening up in my area? Why am I hearing about a job fair over here? And connecting those dots, I think, was one of the big errors.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
Speed number one. And then doing a better job of telling the story. I think that's where we lost the narrative is we had a great story to tell. I really focused, and it was an election year for me, so I focused heavily on the specific factories that were making, solar and wind components for these big projects in New Mexico, and I tied it to big construction projects like the Sun Z generation and transmission line. I don't think we did that nationally as effectively as we could have.
Robinson Meyer:
Do you think it needs a big, I don't know, charismatic idea at the center next time, national grid or big underground, we're going to underground all the lines or something, or it would just have selling it a bit better?
Secretary Granholm:
Well, I think, I mean, when I tell people that there were 950 factories that came or announced they were coming or expanding in the United States just to build clean energy stuff as a result of the Inflation Reduction Act, people are like, 950 factories coming? I mean, there was a good story there. There really was. And I was on the main cable networks, but I didn't go on all of the side, you know, and most people aren't getting their news from main cable. So we have to think better strategically about how we communicate, where we communicate, use social media a lot more to be able to get the word out.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
We should have been on your podcast.
Robinson Meyer:
You should have been on my podcast.
Secretary Granholm:
I was at the end.
After it was all over.
Robinson Meyer:
After it was all over. Shoot, if I had been on earlier. I think that would have been the difference maker. You know, if there's one thing I know about the Shift Key listener is that they are a swing voter in exurban Pennsylvania. We're going to have to leave it there, but thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for doing this. Thank you.
And that will do it for this episode of Shift Key. We'll be back next week at the usual time with a new episode that I'm excited about. Until then, Shift Key is a production of Heatmap News. Our editors are Jillian Goodman and Nico Lauricella. Multimedia editing and audio engineering is by Jacob Lambert and by Nick Woodbury. Our music's by Adam kromelow. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.
Rob talks with two senior Democrats about the future of energy in the U.S.
The Democratic Party’s climate and energy policy is at a difficult moment. Over the past year and a half, the Trump administration has attacked solar and wind energy, started an inflationary war, and repealed key parts of the Inflation Reduction Act. And about a year and a half from now, Democrats will pick a presidential candidate and pitch their energy and climate policies to voters again.
How are key Democrats feeling at this moment? Rob recently had a chance to sit down with two of the party’s most important energy policy makers — Senator Martin Heinrich of New Mexico, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Energy and Natural Resource Committee, and former Energy Secretary and Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm — for an in-person conversation in Washington, D.C.
On this episode of Shift Key, Rob chats with Senator Heinrich and Secretary Granholm, about fuel prices, the state of permitting discussions, AI data centers, and what each learned from writing — and implementing — the Inflation Reduction Act.
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Here is an excerpt from their conversation:
Robinson Meyer: Secretary Granholm, I wonder what watching now 18 months of the Trump administration, you think, you know, we should have done this differently during the Biden administration, or there's an issue here that I would have handled differently, or now that I see what's happened and how they've approached governing.
Secretary Granholm: Yeah, it's such a, it's a great question because I think every one of the cabinet officials looks at what has happened in the Trump administration and says, man, I should have broken more eggs, not more laws, but I should have really insisted on much more quicker, all of the negotiations that took forever on getting the treasury guidelines and all of that. We should have, I mean, like a cannonball should have shot through. And I think that's a good lesson that will be taken away for the next administration.
Robinson Meyer: And why didn't it happen?
Secretary Granholm: Because there's process, because there's lawyers, because, you know, I mean, it just, There was a sense that this is the way you do things, et cetera.
Senator Martin Heinrich: And we accepted it.
Secretary Granholm: Yeah, we all accepted it.
Senator Martin Heinrich: And we shouldn't have.
We should have built programs that don't take two years of analysis. And that is definitely the lesson that I took from the rapid...the things that were fairly straightforward, like the tax credits, were able to move quickly. But there were whole programs like the Green Bank that got stood up just in time to be turned off.
Robinson Meyer: Is that a drafting failure or an implementation failure?
Secretary Granholm: I mean, to be fair, there's a lot in implementation, but there are a lot of rules around all of this that have certain timelines, et cetera. So I think taking a look at all of that, I mean, Democrats have been very, we're going to follow the rules and we're not going to bust, you know, we're not going to break norms. And I think this administration has broken a lot of norms and shown that you can get stuff done more quickly. Now, I don't like what they've gotten done quickly, but nonetheless, I think it's a lesson for us about challenging the status quo.
You can find a full transcript of the episode here.
Mentioned:
Previously on Shift Key: What Senator Martin Heinrich Needs to See in a Permitting Deal
Previously on Shift Key: Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm on What Comes After Biden’s Climate Agenda
Previously on Heatmap: 3 Takeaways From Our SunZia Investigation
Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.