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In aligning with fossil fuel companies, the administration is deepening skepticism of carbon removal.

For as long as people have been talking about building machines that suck carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, the concept has sparked fierce debate. Would such a tool be used the way that scientists envision — alongside aggressive emission cuts? Or would it be co-opted to prolong dependence on fossil fuels?
Suddenly these questions have become less theoretical. Last month, Carbon Engineering, one of the first companies to actually build a “direct air capture” machine, was acquired by Occidental Petroleum, a fossil fuel company that plans to use the technology to market “net-zero oil.” The Biden administration has also selected Occidental as a potential recipient of one of two major grants, worth up to $600 million each, to build a “DAC hub” in South Texas near Corpus Christi. As part of the same announcement, the Department of Energy gave funding to oil and gas companies in California, Alaska, and Alabama for the early planning stages of additional hubs.
“Cutting back on our carbon emissions alone won’t reverse the growing impacts of climate change," Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm said in a press release for the DAC hub awards. "We also need to remove the CO2 that we’ve already put in the atmosphere,”
She’s right. The UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says pursuing carbon removal is “unavoidable” if the world hopes to limit warming to safer temperatures — but it will only work if we stop burning so much oil and gas. In handing the reins of this new industry to fossil fuel companies, the administration has confused the message, stoking the mistrust of those already skeptical of the technology, and giving carbon removal projects with no fossil fuel connections a steeper hill to climb to earn support.
It hasn’t helped that Occidental’s CEO, Vicki Hollub, has described DAC as a “license to continue to operate.” Shortly after the Biden administration’s announcement, she told NPR that thanks to this technology, “there’s no reason not to produce oil and gas forever.” When I reached out to Occidental for clarification, a spokesperson denied that the company will use the technology to pump more oil than it otherwise would. He pointed me to another statement from Hollub in 2022 where she said producing net-zero oil was about “just meeting demand,” and that as long as there was demand for oil, it was better to meet it with a lower-carbon product.
But the aforementioned events have invited fierce blowback. On Wednesday, 17 climate and environmental justice organizations sent a letter to Secretary Granholm calling on the DOE to revoke its funding offers to fossil fuel companies. “There may be paths forward for equitable, climate-positive DAC, but they do not look like the one we’re on now,” they wrote.
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Climate advocates and community groups are not just concerned about giving fossil fuel companies a license to keep producing. Their objection is tied to where these projects are being deployed. The DAC hubs are almost all being planned in economically distressed areas that have hosted fossil fuel production for decades. The bipartisan infrastructure law, which funded the hubs, requires that at least two meet those characteristics.
This makes some economic and political sense. If you need to build pipelines to transport CO2 or drill into the ground to store it, this is where the knowhow resides. The requirement is also intended as a way to create new jobs and transition workers in places that might otherwise be devastated by the decline of the oil and gas industry. But since fossil fuel companies have a track record of polluting these areas with cancerous chemicals and fighting regulations, locals worry about the risks of putting new technology into their hands.
These fears are not unfounded. There are different types of direct air capture technology, but many require energy or heat to separate and compress the CO2 after it is collected, which could create additional pollution depending on how it is generated. The compressed carbon may then have to be transported, via pipeline, to its final destination. While CO2 pipelines have a good safety record, a highly publicized accident in Mississippi that hospitalized 45 people has fanned fears of ruptures.
Perhaps the biggest worry is around what happens next. Some companies, including Occidental, inject CO2 into depleted oil fields in an effort to squeeze the last drops out. But DOE-funded hubs will not be permitted to do this. Instead, the compressed CO2 will likely be injected into a saline aquifer, a layer of permeable rock thousands of feet underground, which is capped by an impermeable layer that prevents the CO2 from leaking out.
Some geological storage wells have been storing carbon successfully for decades, but there are only a handful of such sites operating around the world. A recent report to Congress detailing U.S. experience with CO2 injection summarized several potential risks to human health associated with it, including drinking water contamination, leaks, effects on soil health, and earthquakes. However, it also noted that CO2 injection wells have more stringent construction, testing, and monitoring regulations than other types.
In Kern County, California, where three DAC hubs have been proposed, all of this invokes deja vu. Juan Flores, an organizer for the Center on Race, Poverty and the Environment, one of the signatories to Wednesday’s letter, told me it reminds people of fracking, which brought increased risk of respiratory problems, cancer, preterm birth, and psychological stress to the area. “They experimented with our communities, they denied the new dangers for many years,” he said. “Now our community members are saying, ‘this again?’”
The DOE hubs program required companies to submit a plan for providing community benefits when they applied for funding. But in Kern County, oil and gas companies have squandered their goodwill, Dan Ress, a staff attorney at the Center told me. For example, the California Resources Corporation, an oil and gas company that won an $11 million DOE grant to do an engineering study for a hub in Kern County, recently supported a multi-million dollar campaign to repeal hard-won regulations banning oil drilling next to homes and schools. “This is the same company saying, oh yeah, we want to be good neighbors and do great community benefits? Absolutely not, get out of here,” said Ress.
The feeling of being the unwitting subjects of an experiment also came up in my conversation with Roishetta Ozane, a community organizer in Lake Charles, Louisiana. That’s where another DAC hub called Project Cypress, which could receive up to $600 million from the DOE, is under development. “We don't want to be guinea pigs for something that's never been tried and tested before on this scale,” Ozane told me.
Ozane is the director of the Vessel Project, a grassroots group supporting the needs of black, indigenous, people of color, and low income people in an industrial city where petrochemical production has dramatically expanded over the past decade. (The group was not a signatory on the letter.) She said Lakes Charles is overburdened with pollution and still recovering from a spate of destructive hurricanes in 2020. “We're saying, hey, you might be right. These DAC hubs might work. But why are you testing it in our community?”
There are no fossil fuel companies involved in Project Cypress. But that does not give Ozane any peace of mind. She worries it would “open the floodgates” for companies to keep releasing toxic emissions into the area, as long as they pay someone to pull carbon out of the air afterward.
Multiple people I spoke with in Louisiana and Texas also brought up a history of local officials giving heavy industry a free pass on pollution and major tax breaks. Why should they believe that the DAC hubs will be any better regulated or bring in much-needed revenue?
But local attitudes along the Gulf Coast are varied and complex. Prior to the hubs announcement, Data for Progress, a polling and research non-profit that spearheaded Wednesday’s letter, held a series of focus groups about DAC in Louisiana and Texas. One key finding, Celina Scott-Buechler, a senior fellow who led the research, told me, was that there was a tension between concerns like Ozane’s, and an awareness that fossil fuel companies historically have been the primary sources of good jobs in these communities.
“I think people make a calculated risk decision,” one focus group participant in Lake Charles said. “They're like, oh, so I could be around these chemicals that could have a long-term effect. I may not see them for the next 20, 30 years, but if it's going to take care of my family and give my family a nice home and a good vehicle to drive, then I'll work tirelessly to provide that for my family. But I may die at 65.”
Another stressed that there was a “big need for jobs” and that “sometimes people's need for employment overshadows whether it's good for the environment or not.”
Patrick Nye, who lives in the Corpus Christi area near where Occidental is building its South Texas hub, embodies this tension. Nye owns an energy company that produces oil and generates wind power, but he also runs an environmental group that’s fighting the local expansion of liquified natural gas export facilities and proposed seawater desalination projects. When I asked about his oil business, he said he didn’t have the heart to let his employees go and puts his profits toward his activism.
Nye is skeptical that direct air capture will work, but he thinks it’s worth trying. “If this works, this may help save the planet,” he said. He also sees a lot of potential opportunities flowing to the local university and its graduates. And he thinks the hub will be far enough away from where people live that if things go wrong, few will be impacted. Occidental is building its hub in a largely undeveloped area about 45 miles south of Corpus Christi on King Ranch, the largest private ranch in the country.
At the same time, he’s worried local officials will just rubber stamp the project without proper study. “King Ranch is really well known, they're very politically positioned,” he said. “They have a lot of clout to get this thing done, and it has to be looked at with a very fine tooth comb.”
In addition to requesting DOE withdraw grants for fossil fuel companies, the letter sent Wednesday makes a pitch for how the agency can roll out the DAC hubs program more equitably. The authors propose that projects in areas with extractive industries be co-created or co-owned by communities, actively work to reduce local pollution, have rigorous data transparency, and that locals should have the right to refuse them. They also want community benefits plans to be legally binding, with consequences if companies fail to comply.
All these requirements might sound unfair to companies who are just trying to tackle climate change and make a better world, Scott-Buechler acknowledged. “The question that I ask is, a better world for whom?”
I asked her what it would look like in practice for a community to co-own a DAC hub, considering these are first-of-a-kind projects that are incredibly expensive and financially risky. Would communities be taking on those risks?
This was something that Data for Progress and other groups were still studying, she said, looking at possibilities like having the project held in public trust, or replicating the solar cooperative model. She recognizes that not all communities will be interested in ownership, but thinks it should be an option.
When I asked the DOE how it defends the choice to support fossil fuel company-led projects, a spokesperson told me the agency is “leveraging these companies' significant expertise in managing large energy infrastructure projects and applying this experience to developing DAC projects that are cost-effective, efficient, equitable, and environmentally responsible.”
She also emphasized that Occidental and Project Cypress have only been selected for “award negotiation” and not “officially” awarded yet. “If projects are awarded, DOE and the awardee will have frequent, meaningful engagement with the impacted local community and impacted workers throughout the lifecycle of the project,” she said.
Meanwhile, the agency has also launched a public process to develop a set of safety, environmental stewardship, accountability, and community engagement guidelines for all carbon management projects that it will encourage project developers to (voluntarily) abide by.
But the Biden administration seems eager to support Occidental in its pursuit of direct air capture and encourage more oil and gas companies to follow its lead. During a carbon capture conference last year, Secretary Granholm applauded Oxy’s CEO Vicki Hollub for investing in carbon removal, saying this reflects “exactly the kind of bold thinking we need more of.” Earlier this year, she told a room of oil and gas executives, “We need the energy sector stepping up … few are better positioned to crack open cost-effective carbon management.”
The debate over whether direct air capture is a moral hazard is likely to rage on long after these projects are up and running. But the money is going out the door now. “This is something that is not just coming anymore, it's here,” said Scott Buechler. “Is there a collective vision for what might be able to come next?”
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On Tesla’s sunny picture, Chinese nuclear, and Bad Bunny’s electric halftime show
Current conditions: The Seattle Seahawks returned home to a classically rainy, overcast city from their win in last night’s Super Bowl, though the sun is expected to come out for Wednesday's victory parade • Severe Tropical Cyclone Mitchell is pummeling Western Australia with as much as 8 inches of rain • Flash floods from Storm Marta have killed at least four in Morocco.
Orsted’s two major offshore wind projects in the United States are back on track to be completed on schedule, its chief executive said. Rasmus Errboe told the Financial Times that the Revolution Wind and Sunrise Wind projects in New England would come online in the latter half of this year and in 2027, respectively. “We are fully back to work and construction on both projects is moving forward according to plan,” Errboe said. The U.S. has lost upward of $34 billion worth of clean energy projects since President Donald Trump returned to office, as I wrote last week. A new bipartisan bill introduced in the House last week to reform the federal permitting process would bar the White House from yanking back already granted permits. For now, however, the Trump administration has signaled its plans to appeal federal courts’ decisions to rule against its actions to halt construction on offshore turbines.
The fight over the billions in federal funding the White House is holding up for the Gateway rail project between New Jersey and New York, meanwhile, heated up over the weekend. On Friday night, a federal judge ordered the Trump administration to unfreeze the nearly $16 billion to the project, just hours after construction ground to a halt as funding ran dry. In her ruling, U.S. District Judge Jeannette Vargas of the Southern District of New York wrote that “plaintiffs have adequately shown that the public interest would be harmed by a delay in a critical infrastructure project.” Trump had his own idea in mind. Over the weekend, the White House proposed releasing the money only if Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York agreed to rename Penn Station after Trump.
Tesla has started hiring staff to ramp up production of solar panels as the company looks to build 100 gigawatts of panel-manufacturing capacity supplied with raw materials produced in America. In a job posting on LinkedIn, Seth Winger, Tesla’s senior manager for solar products engineering, wrote that the panel-producing buildout was “an audacious, ambitious project.” For that, he wrote, “we need audacious, ambitious engineers and scientists to help us grow to massive scale. If you want to solve tough manufacturing problems at breakneck speed and help the U.S. breakthrough on renewable energy generation, come join us.” One of the listings indicated that the target date for bringing the new factories online was the “end of 2028,” giving an indication of timing that Reuters noted had been previously absent from Elon Musk’s public statements. Bloomberg reported last week that Tesla is already looking at sites in New York, Arizona, and Idaho for its manufacturing expansion.
The Trump administration tried to yank permits from the offshore wind projects off New England on the grounds that the towering turbines caused more ecological destruction than the electricity is worth. On Friday, however, Trump signed a proclamation reopening a giant marine preserve in the Atlantic Ocean to commercial fishing. First established at the end of the Obama administration, the Northeast Canyons and Seamounts Marine National Monument lies 130 miles off the coast of Cape Cod, encompassing what The New York Times described as “an area the size of Connecticut that is home to dolphins, endangered whales, sea turtles, and ancient deep-sea corals.” While Trump lifted the ban on commercial fishing in the zone during his first administration, President Joe Biden reinstated the restrictions. But this isn’t the first time Trump reopened a national marine national monument to fishing. In April, he ended protections for the Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument located 750 miles west of Hawaii and designated by President George W. Bush in 2009.
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Connecitcut’s Department of Insurance has launched a website that displays extensive information about the climate risk of every property in the state in what E&E News called “an unprecedented move to alert residents and to promote flood insurance.” The details include each property’s history of damage from floods and other events predicted to get worse as the planet warms. “A single risk score does not fully convey flood and climate risk,” department spokesperson Mary Quinn said. The department plans a marketing campaign this year with ads on radio, TV, and social media, and workshops for insurance agents on how to use the website. Nationwide, climate change is already raising household costs by $900 per year, as Heatmap’s Matthew Zeitlin reported last year. Wildfires have already “destroyed California’s insurance market,” according to an interview with Heatmap's Shift Key podcast last year with an expert at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School.
Unit 1 of the Taipingling nuclear power station in China’s Guangdong has reached criticality seven years after construction began on the gigawatt-sized Hualong One reactor. The debut atom-splitting means the newest reactor is months, if not weeks, from entering into commercial operation. If that enticingly single-digit number of years to build a piece of infrastructure that takes the U.S. more than a decade wasn’t enough of a sign of China’s nuclear strengths, the country this week hit another milestone on a separate atomic station. At the Zhangzhou-3 nuclear reactor, workers last week installed the inner steel dome of the containment building.

Nearly a decade after Puerto Rico’s power grid collapsed and plunged America’s most populous territory into the second-longest blackout in world history, the island’s biggest musical star performed a Super Bowl halftime show that included linemen working on transformers. Bad Bunny’s performance, a revue of his reggaeton hits, served as an ode to what he called “my motherland, my homeland, Puerto Rico.” The grid still suffers regular outages. When it’s working, the power system sends occasional surges through wires that fry appliances. Electricity rates are higher than almost any state, despite Puerto Rico suffering worse poverty rates than Mississippi. At one point, Bad Bunny climbed a utility pole on stage waving a light-blue Puerto Rican flag, a symbol of the movement to establish the island territory as its own independent nation. It was a powerful political statement at America’s most-watched sporting event. For energy nerds, it was a rare opportunity to reflect on one of the worst, most prolonged infrastructure disasters in modern American history.
Rob talks with the lawmaker from New Mexico (and one-time mechanical engineer) about the present and future of climate policy.
The permitting reform conversation is heating up.
On this week’s episode of Shift Key, Rob talks to Senator Martin Heinrich about whether Republicans and Democrats will reach a permitting reform deal this year. They chat about what Democrats would need to see in such a deal, how it could help transmission projects, and why such a deal will ultimately need to constrain President Trump in some way.
They also discuss the future of Democratic energy and climate policy — what Heinrich learned from the Biden administration, what the Inflation Reduction Act got right (and wrong), and why data centers are becoming a new kind of energy villain.
Heinrich is the senior senator from New Mexico (and a well-known transmission policy nerd). He’s also a trained mechanical engineer and the son of a utility lineman. Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap, and Jesse Jenkins, a professor of energy systems engineering at Princeton University. Jesse is off this week.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Here is an excerpt from our conversation:
Robinson Meyer: There’s one bill we reported on yesterday at Heatmap called the FREEDOM Act. It just came out of the House. It has a bipartisan group behind it, including [Republican] Mike Lawler from New York and [Democrat] Adam Gray in California. It tries to prevent federal agencies from terminating work on a fully permitted project or affecting ongoing construction on a fully permitted project. And it would establish this fund that a company that has seen its permits get yanked could pull from in the Treasury Department, up to $5 million.
Does this bill meet your concerns? Have you looked at it? Is this the kind of text that you would need to see to say, okay, we could put a deal together?
Senator Martin Heinrich: We’re very intrigued in digging into that legislation right now, and I do think that anything we can do to create more certainty in the market — and that’s true for both renewables and for traditional energy. Because the truth is, we can’t have a system where, when one party controls the White House, they attack this set of energy, and then when it changes hands, that group attacks this other set of energy. We just need to set policy and then have predictable flows of capital into the market. And so I think this is a positive step forward. And we should look at all the things the House does and evaluate them on their merits.
I will say that if the figure is $5 billion for this fund, you could exhaust that on one wind project. And thank goodness the court stepped in as quickly as they did because those offshore wind projects were on the scale of tens of billions of dollars. And effectively, if you’re going shut those off, that’s a takings, in my view. That’s like actually stealing someone’s capital, stealing someone’s money.
And we can’t — that’s third world stuff. We can’t have that in the United States of America. But I give credit to the House for coming forward with this kind of thing because we do need to constrain it.
You can find the full transcript of this episode here.
Mentioned:
SunZia: The Untold Saga of America's Biggest Power Line, by Robinson Meyer
The FREEDOM Act: New Bipartisan House Bill Would Keep President From Yanking Permits
This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by ...
Accelerate your clean energy career with Yale’s online certificate programs. Explore the 10-month Financing and Deploying Clean Energy program or the 5-month Clean and Equitable Energy Development program. Use referral code HeatMap26 and get your application in by the priority deadline for $500 off tuition to one of Yale’s online certificate programs in clean energy. Learn more at cbey.yale.edu/online-learning-opportunities.
Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.
This transcript was automatically generated.
Robinson Meyer:
[1:25] I’m Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News, and this is Shift Key, Heatmap’s podcast about decarbonization and the shift away from fossil fuels. It is Monday, February 9th, and I think it’s fair to say the biggest possible climate legislation that could come out of Congress this year is a permitting reform bill. This would be, let’s be clear, a compromise between Democrats and Republicans, where Democrats agree to rewrite parts of the National Environmental Policy Act, reduce some permitting barriers, maybe make it easier to build pipelines, while in exchange, Republicans would agree to change the rules on clean energy projects and transmission lines, making it easier to build wind,
Robinson Meyer:
[2:04] solar, batteries, all that good stuff. There’d be some bipartisan goals in there, too. I think there’s some lawmakers from both parties who want to make it easier to build advanced geothermal, for instance. But this would be a compromise no matter what, and nobody would be totally thrilled with it.
Robinson Meyer:
[2:18] Senator Martin Heinrich is the ranking Democratic member of the Senate Energy Committee. He’s the senior senator from New Mexico, and any permitting deal in the Senate would have to go through him. He’s also a giant transmission nerd. As I’ve written about, he was integral to reaching a deal on the Sunzia transmission line, which is a three and a half gigawatt wind farm and power line project in New Mexico. I’ll stick an article about that in the show notes. And he is our guest on Shift Key today. Senator Heinrich and I spoke last week, and you’re going to hear what he thinks the biggest obstacle to getting a permitting reform deal done is, what might need to happen for Democrats to feel good about a deal and why such a deal ultimately needs to constrain Trump in some way. He makes a little news. There was a bipartisan House bill last week that would limit executive interference on energy projects. You’ll hear what he thinks about it. And we also talk about the future of climate policy for the Democratic Party writ large, what he learned from the Biden administration, what the Inflation Reduction Act got right and what it got wrong, what a future climate law would need to do and whether energy policy needs a
Robinson Meyer:
[3:22] villain and who that villain might be. It was a great conversation. I learned a lot from it and it’s all coming up this week on Shift Key. Senator Heinrich, welcome to Shift Key.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[3:35] Great to be here.
Robinson Meyer:
[3:36] I want to start with the news. So what are the obstacles and state of play on permitting reform today?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[3:45] Well, I think the biggest obstacle is just the unwillingness of this administration to sort of play by the normal rules and laws and the order that has served our country so well for so long. There were kind of two big buckets where they were coloring outside the lines. And one that got a lot of press was the offshore wind issues. And we’ve seen the courts really do a great job with those projects that are fully permitted, at least, and are well under construction, in some cases like 80% complete. The courts have intervened and said, no, you can’t do this. These stop work orders are just illegal. So put people back to work.
Robinson Meyer:
[4:29] Their legal record on this is like 5-0 or something.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[4:32] Yeah, that’s exactly right. And so that’s been a great outcome for a lot of people who, you know, I had somebody in front of me testifying last week, I think it was, who said, talked about a painter who like two days before Christmas, he thought he was going to be working on this wind project for the next three years and two days before Christmas, he doesn’t have a job. So that’s outrageous, and we shouldn’t tolerate it in this country. And I think the courts are doing a good job of putting those projects back into
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[5:02] play, and those are moving forward. I think what’s gotten less coverage is this secretarial order at the Department of Interior, where there are literally 69 different things that most of which would never land on the secretary’s desk to begin with. Really minor things like rights of way and findings of no significant impact. This secretarial order has said all these things are going to land on the secretary’s desk for his approval. That’s the opposite of permitting reform. That’s intentional red tape at a scale we’ve never seen before. And so you have all of these things that oftentimes would have been handled by some bureaucrat at a local BLM office in Nevada or New Mexico or Utah. uh.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[5:51] That would have just been approved as a matter of course, unless they’re inconsistent with our laws and regulations. They’re all stacking up on Secretary Burgum’s desk and nothing is leaving his desk. And so you have roughly half the generation in the pipeline that’s trying to get plugged into the grid right now that is in permitting purgatory. We just don’t know. There’s no callback to the developers. They just don’t know when or if these projects that they’ve already invested in are going to be approved. I think that deserves a lot more attention because it is truly threatening the growth of the grid, and it is going to show up in higher and higher prices as demand continues to surge, but those generation projects are not able to put their electrons on the grid.
Robinson Meyer:
[6:45] To just dwell on that for a moment, when you talk to developers, what kind of projects are getting held up by the secretarial order? So is it projects on public land, which are obviously a huge deal out west? Or is it anything with a kind of nexus with a federal waterway? Or just like, give us a sense of which project, like, are there private projects?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[7:05] Right. It’s like across the board. It is both anything that has a nexus to public land gets caught up in this in many cases. Oftentimes you need a right of way just to be able to connect to a transmission or distribution line. It runs across the entire generation spectrum and the projects that are necessary to facilitate that generation. Things like transmission and distribution lines, roads, stuff that normally would have gotten processed as a matter of course. And so it’s hard to overstate the scale of how much things have ground to a halt. And it does go beyond Interior as well. So you have, you know, you have Fish and Wildlife Service not processing permits. You have EPA not processing permits. And so the whole ability of our country to meet our energy demand has sort of just gotten stuck in this quagmire.
Robinson Meyer:
[8:07] I want to get back to this question of executive interference, but there was a bill that came out of the House last year. There was a permitting reform bill and there were some votes on it. There was some discussion and you were among a group of senators who said, no, this would not be acceptable, this offer, because it doesn’t have any transmission in it. It doesn’t have the transmission policy we’d need to see. And so just as you understand it, what would be the key parts of a permitting reform deal across both parties and that you would need to see to get something done here?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[8:39] Well, the SPEED Act that came out of the House was very much a sort of rewrite the National Environmental Policy Act kind of permitting reform. That doesn’t live in my committee. It lives not in Energy and Natural Resources where I’m the ranking member, but it lives over in Environment and Public Works, where Sheldon Whitehouse is the ranking member. And I don’t think there is support for that legislation in that committee either. I am focused on transmission because that does live in my committee, but also because it is necessary to solve one of the fundamental, most acute problems that we have in the energy sector right now, which is the fact that we have, for the first time since air conditioning became commonplace, we have this enormous, enormous surge in demand, like something I have not seen since my dad was a lineman and I was seven years old. And so that demand, you see it in stories all over the country. But when you look at how we’re meeting that demand and you look at all the supply that is trying to be brought on the grid right now, first off, you need transmission to connect the places where you can do the generation to the places where the demand is going to be used.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[10:02] And in addition, that supply is, for the next five or six years, is 95% renewable. If you didn’t order a gas turbine multiple years ago, you’re going to be waiting five, six, seven, eight years to get that gas turbine. The stuff that is plugging into the grid right now is wind, solar, and batteries, because they’re quick to deploy. They’re fast to permit under normal conditions. You know what the costs are. You don’t have to wait in a line for five years to get pieces and parts to be able to build that. And so that’s what’s been being deployed to sort of bridge our demand. There’s a lot of neat stuff that’s out there seven years from now in terms of small modular reactors, advanced and enhanced geothermal, which I am all for. But in the meantime, we have to plug in wind, solar, and batteries. It’s the only way we can meet that demand. We don’t meet that demand. People’s electricity costs are going to go through the roof, and we’re already seeing that with about a 13% increase in retail electric costs just since this administration came into office.
Robinson Meyer:
[11:13] So transmission, so executive interference, it would be great to plug in that wind and solar and batteries. As you were saying, it’s been held up by the Trump administration. Do you think it’s possible to find some kind of bill or text or proposal that would undo the secretarial order that would allow energy projects to move in a more normal way through the Trump administration?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[11:36] We are certainly exploring that with a number of different constituencies, how you would craft something that removes executive discretion from the process and just sets a sort of performance bar. I’m a fan of that approach generally. I mean, I started my career in the city council and I dealt with land use issues all the time. I was the chair of the land use committee on Albuquerque City Council. And I found that when you had this amorphous process where you didn’t know where the bar was, that things would get caught up in litigation and just get drug out for years, where if you just set a high bar at the beginning and said, once you check these boxes, you can proceed, that that’s a much better way to do permitting to begin with.
Robinson Meyer:
[12:22] There’s one bill we reported on yesterday at Heatmap called the FREEDOM Act. It just came out of the House. It has a bipartisan group behind it, including Mike Lawler from New York, Adam Gray in California. It tries to prevent federal agencies from terminating work on a fully permitted project or affecting ongoing construction on a fully permitted project. And it would establish this fund that a company that has seen its permits get yanked could pull from in the Treasury Department up to $5 million. Does this bill meet your concerns? Have you looked at it? Is this the kind of text that you would need to see to say, okay, we could put a deal together?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[13:00] We’re very intrigued and digging into that legislation right now. And I do think that anything we can do to create more certainty in the market, and that’s true for both renewables and for traditional energy, because the truth is, we can’t have a system where when one party controls the White House, they attack this set of energy. And then when it changes hands, that group attacks this other set of energy. We just need to set policy and then have predictable flows of capital into the market. And so I think this is a positive step forward. And we should look at all the things the House does and evaluate them on their merits. I will say that if the figure is $5 billion for this fund, you could exhaust that on one wind project. And thank goodness the courts stepped in as quickly as they did because those offshore wind projects were on the scale of tens of billions of dollars.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[14:08] And effectively, if you’re going to shut those off, that’s a takings in my view. That’s like actually stealing someone’s capital, stealing someone’s money. And we can’t like that’s third world stuff. We can’t have that in the United States of America. But I give credit to the House for coming forward with this kind of thing because we do need to constrain it.
Robinson Meyer:
[14:31] Well, if you sign on to it, let us know at Heatmap. I want to zoom out and talk about climate policy more broadly. So permitting reform obviously fits into this. But we just came out of an administration that did a lot on the climate, passed the Inflation Reduction Act, and frankly, had a tough time of it with voters, and even had a tough time of it, I think, with some environmental groups and maybe didn’t find the support that they expected. So how are you thinking about the future of democratic climate policy? And do you think we’ll ever see another administration that prioritizes the issue in the same way the Biden administration did?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[15:04] I certainly hope so. I think the mistake that was made, it’s true of the Biden administration, but it’s true of a lot of members who were involved in the creation of the IRA too. We did not tell the story well enough. And it wasn’t because there wasn’t a story to tell so in new mexico i made i was up for election last year and I made a very concerted effort to put the things that we did that created new jobs new manufacturing and new projects at the center of my communication because people are busy like you can’t just think that you’re going to change a policy and people are going to figure out how to connect the dots between what you did and what the impacts were. But I found if I told that story as part of my campaign, and it was central to my paid media strategy and everything we did, that people got it. They connected the dots because we told a story. And that’s a lesson. You have to do that. You also have to move fast. And I think we made a number of mistakes in being.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[16:18] Willing to accept a kind of cumbersome process that already existed that kept things from moving at a pace where we could demonstrate actual results. And this is a lesson I’ve learned over the years. Just like when we did Obamacare, like all the bad stuff was up front and all the good stuff was five years later. That’s a bad recipe because people have now figured out that, oh, oh, I need Obamacare, but it took years to get there. We can learn those lessons in terms of any climate policy to front load things like tax benefits are relatively quick. There’s a process to write the rules, but those things can take effect almost immediately. If you had something like the green bank that lived at EPA, it took too long to set that up. And by the time cash was moving, a new administration was in and said, nope, we’re going to stop, full stop on all that stuff. So that should inform, you know, speed to market is going to need to be absolutely critical in any sort of climate policy.
Robinson Meyer:
[17:27] So I’m happy to hear you say this. And it’s something that I think your other colleagues have said as well, that there was too much process. It took too long to end things up. I do want to push on it because I think we’re about as far now from a democratic legislative process as it is possible to be. It’s been a few years since the IRA. It’s like at least a few years until the possibility of another trifecta. And if there were to be a bill in the future... The people who want process don’t come to the negotiations, or they don’t advocate and say, we really want process. What they say is, well, this needs to be careful. We don’t want the benefits to go to people who don’t need the benefits. We need more planning here. We need to make sure that the stakeholders who fought for this coalition actually get the benefits. And we don’t want the market to decide that. So it’s great that at this moment, people are like, we need to go faster. But in the heat of a bill legislating process, how is that actually going to pan out?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[18:31] I think it means that you have to understand what your goals are, what you’re trying to accomplish, and think through how you set a high bar for... You need to think through that ahead of time and incorporate it into the legislation, as opposed to defer to some agency who’s going to go through a very cumbersome regulatory process to figure that out. So you need you need to work, do the work on the front end, basically. And I think that’s where we did that things moved quickly and where we didn’t, things moved painfully slowly.
Robinson Meyer:
[19:07] What’s the policy that you think worked best in the bill?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[19:10] I think that, you know, tax credits, definitely. And some of those survived and are, you know, one of the things people need to understand is that clean energy is the dominant energy. Now, It’s not alternative. It is the dominant energy in our country, and it is continuing to expand its dominance. And we have a situation where the things that did survive, the incentives for energy storage and batteries, the incentives for nuclear, the incentives for geothermal, those things did survive. And they’re going to continue to drive innovation in the market. I’m really excited about the things that we’re seeing in small modular fission, in advanced and enhanced geothermal. I’m seeing stuff in my state that 10 years ago just did not exist. It’s going to be five years before that stuff is plugged into the grid, but it’s game-changing, and we’re just going to continue to expand the places where the clean energy sector is market-dominant.
[AD BREAK]
Robinson Meyer:
[21:53] So you come from an oil and gas state, and there have been some calls for Democrats to look for places they can ally with the oil and gas industry or oil and gas interests. I think we’ve seen from one state over, Senator Gallego has made some noise in this direction. Do you think Democrats need a different oil and gas policy than the one they had during the Biden administration? And what do you hear from your constituents?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[22:15] Well, I think it can’t be supply You can’t tell people that you can’t burn gasoline in your car before you have an alternative, right? That mistake has been made in many countries over the years. It sort of led to some of the protests we saw in France a few years ago. You have to build a better mousetrap. And I do think there are, you know, one of the reasons why, if we can deal with the administrative stall out on permitting, that you can build alliances between clean energy and traditional molecules-based energy around the certainty of the permitting process. That’s a place where both sides don’t want to live in a world where their capital can be held at gunpoint by some hostile administration. And so there are some opportunities there. And I think it’s important to explore those. That’s how you build a permitting package that can actually pass. And I think that was done well in the permitting package that we passed out of committee two years ago that I certainly supported.
Robinson Meyer:
[23:26] Do you think a future president should talk about these things a little differently? I think, I don’t know, I think back to the Biden administration and when he approved Willow, for instance, he got all this blowback from it, from green groups, from environmentalists. And it was an export project, so it wasn’t quite the same story. But there was no, he didn’t try to sell the benefits at all. And he had to live with the consequences anyway. He wasn’t like, oh, this is going to make us richer because we’re selling oil into the world. He was just like, I’m sorry, I have to do this. And he got beat up for it anyway. Do you think that they’re like, you know, I think one
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[24:01] Of the weird things about the oil and gas markets is that we have put so much capital into exporting American oil and gas to the world because we haven’t put capital into the kind of refining technology that would allow it to be used here and lower people’s prices. And so that creates a lot of sort of strange gymnastics in the market. You know, we export so much crude oil and we’re now, because this administration has taken a no holds barred, we’re going to export any gas permit that comes our way. We’re going to approve it all, despite the fact that there is a requirement in the law that it’s in the best interest of the country and DOE is supposed to certify that. They’ve just said, we’re going to export it all. If you do that and you’re not careful about taking each incremental project, on its own merits and how it’s going to impact the market.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[25:08] That is part of the reason we’ve seen natural gas prices double in the last few years. And in addition to that really hurting consumers, it also hurts for those manufacturing businesses that have been really dependent on gas for heat in the manufacturing process. It’s really hard on them, too. So it puts us at a disadvantage with other international manufacturers. So all of this stuff, the details really do matter. It’s why like bumper stickers don’t make good energy policy. You really do need to understand the capital flows and the energy flows to be able to protect the consumer.
Robinson Meyer:
[25:52] Do you think the energy policy, environmental policy, is like an area where it’s good to have villains? I mean, we used to talk about oil and gas companies. I would say green groups, there’s a lot of focus on oil and gas companies as villains. And true to form, Trump’s administration has knocked a lot of clean energy projects back. Now we’re talking about utilities as villains. Are the utilities villains going forward? Are the oil and gas companies villains?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[26:14] If they’re not careful, the entities that are going to be portrayed as villains, and depending on how they manage their community engagement and their sort of benefit to local communities, they could be villains, but they don’t have to be, are going to be the hyperscalers and the data center developers.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[26:39] And unfortunately, a lot of what I am seeing is move fast and break things. Like it’s a very top-down Silicon Valley kind of process where they come into a community and say, hey, you should be really glad we’re here and we’re going to tell you exactly how we’re going to do things. And that’s a recipe for failure. It’s no different than what I saw 20 years ago in the transmission sector when transmission companies thought they could do the same thing in local communities. What they need to do is go into communities and engage and listen. And the first thing people will tell you is, if you’re going to build this data center, don’t raise my rates. And that’s a very reasonable request. They also want good jobs, not crappy jobs. They want you to use water responsibly. And in many communities, they want clean energy as the source of energy for those data centers. And if if developers would approach that process by actually listening at the front end and working with local communities i think you would see a much faster rate of adoption and because frankly many of them some of them are being arrogant it puts at risk a lot of capital and a lot of compute so don’t, you know, like, don’t let yourself be painted as a villain by behaving responsibly
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[28:04] and listening to local communities.
Robinson Meyer:
[28:06] How are data centers playing into this evolving energy politics story? You just gave us a taste, but do you think they’re going to make transmission reform, permitting reform easier or harder in the next few years?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[28:17] I think it depends on whether they get off their rear ends and actually get involved in that conversation. You cannot have the scale and number of data centers that the hyperscalers want without building a lot more transmission and having a more robust grid. That said, they have not been active in these conversations, and that’s a giant mistake. Republicans are just coming around to the fact that they generally, in the past, have not been that interested in transmission, but they’re starting to realize that if they want the benefits and the investment, of these data centers that you kind of have to do the transmission. And that’s a good dynamic because it means that when both sides want something, we can figure out how to write a policy that satisfies both sides.
Robinson Meyer:
[29:12] What are you hearing from Republicans about data centers? Because we notice at Heatmap that it’s a major issue for their constituents and there’s a lot of backlash. You started to hear that from them. And you recently did this electricity affordability roundtable? What were you being told about the effect of data centers on the grid?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[29:29] Well, if you’re not careful with how you structure incremental demand and rates, I think you’re going to see a huge backlash, and Republicans understand that. The key is to actually engage and do good policy so that you’re not passing those incremental costs on to rate payers, customers. They should not bear those costs. The smart thing to do is to say, if we’re going to build this data center, they’re going to pay a premium for the power so that they’re not raising rates on the surrounding community. And if you do it that way, you can build a win-win situation where you have community support. We’ve seen a lot of mistakes out of the gate. And I think it’s for the developers who figure this out and do it in a way that treats local communities with respect and doesn’t raise their rates and sort of checks those other boxes I talked about in terms of quality of workforce and water efficiency, they’re going to have an unending supply of very profitable work. But if you think you’re going to run roughshod over some county and.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[30:48] The truth is, if you’re in a county commission and they have to permit you, and there are five people on the county commission and three are against it, your project’s going away. It’s not getting built. So the lesson there should be genuinely get involved with that local community and figure out what a win-win looks like.
Robinson Meyer:
[31:09] Last question. Can you give us quickly your hit list for transmission reform in a future permitting reform package? Like what is the checklist of things you’d like to see and things you think we can get?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[31:21] I would love to see regional planning that really works. I would love to see grid enhancing technologies incentivized because there’s a lot more we can get out of the existing grid. And that buys us some time for the new big build kind of transmission projects that we need to do. So those are some of the things that I think are really critical.
Robinson Meyer:
[31:43] And those would be like a mandate or a tax credit or something?
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[31:46] I would love to see a tax credit for building in a regional transmission. That would create some economic incentive and some certainty where these are patient capital projects. So anything you can do to incentivize the value stack there gives people the
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[32:02] patience to get through what is often a very long process.
Robinson Meyer:
[32:05] Okay, I know you have to go vote. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. Always good to talk.
Senator Martin Heinrich:
[32:09] Thanks, Rob.
Robinson Meyer:
[32:13] That will do it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening to Shift Key. You can follow me on X at at Robinson Meyer or more actively on Blue Sky or LinkedIn at my name, Robinson Meyer. If you enjoyed Shift Key, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast app or send this episode to your friends. Jesse, I promise, is returning soon. He’s not gone forever. We’ll be back later this week, actually, with another episode of Shift Key. Until then, Shift Key is a production of Heatmap News. Our editors are Jillian Goodman and Nico Loricella. Multimedia editing and audio engineering is by Jacob Lambert and by Nick Woodbury. Our music is by Adam Kromelow. Thank you so much for listening and see you next week.