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A conversation with the billionaire climate investor in Dubai.
Eight years ago, at the Paris climate convention, Bill Gates committed $2 billion to fighting climate change.
You have to admire his ROI. Since then, Breakthrough Energy, the set of Gates-linked climate groups, has become ubiquitous on the topic. It invested in dozens of climate-tech startups, and Gates personally lobbied for the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act.
Gates has also come to formulate a big idea: the “green premium,” the gap between the cost of a fossil-fueled technology and the cost of a climate-friendly one. Right now, electricity generation has almost no green premium, for instance — solar power is dirt cheap — but steelmaking’s green premium is very high. Only when the world gets green premiums down to zero for every economic activity, Gates argues, will it be able to seriously solve climate change.
I had a few minutes to chat with Gates on the sidelines of COP28, the United Nations climate conference in Dubai, about green premiums and what we were doing in Dubai in the first place. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
Well, there’s a lot of good things that happen at COP. Remember that there are many sectors that make up the solution. Small, innovative companies — and Breakthrough Energy has 30 [startups] here, I bet you there’s 70 others — they need big companies, they need government policies, and they have booths here. And they give people a sense: Oh, there is a new way to make steel. Well, how quickly can that be adopted? How quickly do you get the green premium down to zero? Are my steel companies and my company engaged in this? What do they think? It keeps the pressure on.
Obviously, there is no coercive mechanism here. So solving global problems — given that you don’t have world government — maybe you need meetings of 70,000 people to try and say, “Hey, come on, everybody, let's do this together.” You know, anti-climate people say, “Hey, why should the U.S. make sacrifices? Because if the U.S. alone does this, or even U.S. and Europe, the [effect on global average temperature] is very, very small and it’s not worth doing.”
Climate is so complicated. To really understand climate, you’d have to be a physicist, a biologist, an atmospheric scientist. People who are polymathic love the subject, because it allows you to say, “Oh, I’m reading a book that’s going to help you understand climate” — and almost any science book you can justify.
So getting people to understand a little bit more about climate … this is an atmosphere that the bias is toward exaggerating the impact of climate, but oh well. Maybe the signal gets muted when it gets out to the other 7 billion, and so we have to kind of, you know, overdo it here so at least it gets some resonance.
The political situation is that about 40% of voters are like, “Wow, I didn’t know my lifestyle was going to be reduced because of this. Isn’t there some rich guy or some other country or someone else who should be paying for this electric heat pump, or paying more money for their gasoline because of your carbon tax?”
Washington State has a carbon tax, which is kind of unusual in that it’s been focused on gasoline, so it’s actually raised the gasoline price. We have a referendum [to overturn the law in the works] — it’ll be interesting to watch.
Even in Europe, who you’d have to say is the most climate-committed region of the world, they have very few political parties — although maybe the one just won the Netherlands elections is one of them — who are like, “Hey, screw all this, let’s do nothing.” But even there they have to be careful because the elites‘ commitment to climate greatly exceeds the general voter’s. So when Macron puts on his diesel tax, that lasted about three months, because the rural people who are less well-off than the urban people said, “Oh, this tax is targeted at us. You’ve lost touch.” And then a whole movement gets created around that, and he pulled the diesel tax really quickly. And compared to the carbon tax that you should have on diesel, [Macron’s diesel tax] was like a tenth of the increase.
So, you know, the 70,000 here aren’t — it’s like the Republican primary, it’s not a representative set of people. For me, you know, I only have one hammer, which is innovation, whether it’s software, global health, or climate. I’ve never seen a problem that innovation can’t solve, which is a caricature, but that’s where I add value. It’s organizing the capital and the teams and the goals. It’s fantastic how much progress we’ve made in eight years.
It’s going super well. They’ve got [former White House chief of staff] John Podesta [leading the effort], who’s here helping to try and make sure it goes faster than normal. We fund groups that are helping with IRA implementation. There’s various philanthropic things we’ve done in support of getting the IRA to move quickly — so that, like Obamacare, maybe it’s more popular four years after it passes in red states than it was the day that it went through on a purely partisan vote.
Some people have estimated the cost of these tax credits at way beyond what they were scored. I think they’re wrong, because their EV number was insane — that Goldman Sachs, $1.2 trillion thing. But the Congress is there if a tax credit over-succeeds. They can — at year four, five, six — cut it back or eliminate it.
Right now, companies are responding to the IRA incentives. But you know, if you get Trump elected, and he really gets rid of it, there’s a lot of business plans that will [make people] feel foolish. And then for the future, it’s going to be very tough. Because even if the Democrats come in and put something new in, people say, “Well, you’re asking me to make a 30-year investment. And half the time, I’m stupid.” So that could be quite damaging that it’s so unpredictable.
I’ve said very clearly that, unless you get green premiums to zero, you’ll never get adoption in the middle-income countries. The low-income countries are small numbers, and you can subsidize them — maybe, in some cases, you should. But [you can’t] in the middle-income countries — that’s India, China, Brazil, Vietnam. You know, humanity lives in middle-income countries, and thank God, it’s the opposite of what it was in the 1960s, when there were almost no middle-income countries and there was this rich, Europe-U.S. piece.
So yes, we have to make solar, fission, fusion, storage, cement, steel, beef — we’ve got to make them at, ideally, negative green premiums, but at least at zero green premiums. Otherwise, you never get adoption.
Now, technology can go through a period where it has a green premium. And then you’re asking rich countries, rich companies, rich people to create the demand signal to get on the learning curve, like was done with solar. Breakthrough [Energy] only works on technologies that, once they’re down the learning curve, have zero or negative green premiums. At the Paris talks, there was almost no focus on the hard to abate areas. Even though it won’t achieve 1.5 [degrees Celsius of warming] and probably won’t achieve 2 [degrees Celsius], the fact that we kicked that off, and there are more companies than I would have expected with cool ideas — many of which will fail, you know — that’s more than I thought we’d have eight years ago.
Rhodium is not assuming there’s a cheap fission reactor. Once you get to 2060, predicting the costs of things… I mean, even fusion. We will probably have extremely economic fusion by then.
Editor’s note: This article was updated after publication.
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A conversation with VDE Americas CEO Brian Grenko.
This week’s Q&A is about hail. Last week, we explained how and why hail storm damage in Texas may have helped galvanize opposition to renewable energy there. So I decided to reach out to Brian Grenko, CEO of renewables engineering advisory firm VDE Americas, to talk about how developers can make sure their projects are not only resistant to hail but also prevent that sort of pushback.
The following conversation has been lightly edited for clarity.
Hiya Brian. So why’d you get into the hail issue?
Obviously solar panels are made with glass that can allow the sunlight to come through. People have to remember that when you install a project, you’re financing it for 35 to 40 years. While the odds of you getting significant hail in California or Arizona are low, it happens a lot throughout the country. And if you think about some of these large projects, they may be in the middle of nowhere, but they are taking hundreds if not thousands of acres of land in some cases. So the chances of them encountering large hail over that lifespan is pretty significant.
We partnered with one of the country’s foremost experts on hail and developed a really interesting technology that can digest radar data and tell folks if they’re developing a project what the [likelihood] will be if there’s significant hail.
Solar panels can withstand one-inch hail – a golfball size – but once you get over two inches, that’s when hail starts breaking solar panels. So it’s important to understand, first and foremost, if you’re developing a project, you need to know the frequency of those events. Once you know that, you need to start thinking about how to design a system to mitigate that risk.
The government agencies that look over land use, how do they handle this particular issue? Are there regulations in place to deal with hail risk?
The regulatory aspects still to consider are about land use. There are authorities with jurisdiction at the federal, state, and local level. Usually, it starts with the local level and with a use permit – a conditional use permit. The developer goes in front of the township or the city or the county, whoever has jurisdiction of wherever the property is going to go. That’s where it gets political.
To answer your question about hail, I don’t know if any of the [authority having jurisdictions] really care about hail. There are folks out there that don’t like solar because it’s an eyesore. I respect that – I don’t agree with that, per se, but I understand and appreciate it. There’s folks with an agenda that just don’t want solar.
So okay, how can developers approach hail risk in a way that makes communities more comfortable?
The bad news is that solar panels use a lot of glass. They take up a lot of land. If you have hail dropping from the sky, that’s a risk.
The good news is that you can design a system to be resilient to that. Even in places like Texas, where you get large hail, preparing can mean the difference between a project that is destroyed and a project that isn’t. We did a case study about a project in the East Texas area called Fighting Jays that had catastrophic damage. We’re very familiar with the area, we work with a lot of clients, and we found three other projects within a five-mile radius that all had minimal damage. That simple decision [to be ready for when storms hit] can make the complete difference.
And more of the week’s big fights around renewable energy.
1. Long Island, New York – We saw the face of the resistance to the war on renewable energy in the Big Apple this week, as protestors rallied in support of offshore wind for a change.
2. Elsewhere on Long Island – The city of Glen Cove is on the verge of being the next New York City-area community with a battery storage ban, discussing this week whether to ban BESS for at least one year amid fire fears.
3. Garrett County, Maryland – Fight readers tell me they’d like to hear a piece of good news for once, so here’s this: A 300-megawatt solar project proposed by REV Solar in rural Maryland appears to be moving forward without a hitch.
4. Stark County, Ohio – The Ohio Public Siting Board rejected Samsung C&T’s Stark Solar project, citing “consistent opposition to the project from each of the local government entities and their impacted constituents.”
5. Ingham County, Michigan – GOP lawmakers in the Michigan State Capitol are advancing legislation to undo the state’s permitting primacy law, which allows developers to evade municipalities that deny projects on unreasonable grounds. It’s unlikely the legislation will become law.
6. Churchill County, Nevada – Commissioners have upheld the special use permit for the Redwood Materials battery storage project we told you about last week.
Long Islanders, meanwhile, are showing up in support of offshore wind, and more in this week’s edition of The Fight.
Local renewables restrictions are on the rise in the Hawkeye State – and it might have something to do with carbon pipelines.
Iowa’s known as a renewables growth area, producing more wind energy than any other state and offering ample acreage for utility-scale solar development. This has happened despite the fact that Iowa, like Ohio, is home to many large agricultural facilities – a trait that has often fomented conflict over specific projects. Iowa has defied this logic in part because the state was very early to renewables, enacting a state portfolio standard in 1983, signed into law by a Republican governor.
But something else is now on the rise: Counties are passing anti-renewables moratoria and ordinances restricting solar and wind energy development. We analyzed Heatmap Pro data on local laws and found a rise in local restrictions starting in 2021, leading to nearly 20 of the state’s 99 counties – about one fifth – having some form of restrictive ordinance on solar, wind or battery storage.
What is sparking this hostility? Some of it might be counties following the partisan trend, as renewable energy has struggled in hyper-conservative spots in the U.S. But it may also have to do with an outsized focus on land use rights and energy development that emerged from the conflict over carbon pipelines, which has intensified opposition to any usage of eminent domain for energy development.
The central node of this tension is the Summit Carbon Solutions CO2 pipeline. As we explained in a previous edition of The Fight, the carbon transportation network would cross five states, and has galvanized rural opposition against it. Last November, I predicted the Summit pipeline would have an easier time under Trump because of his circle’s support for oil and gas, as well as the placement of former North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum as interior secretary, as Burgum was a major Summit supporter.
Admittedly, this prediction has turned out to be incorrect – but it had nothing to do with Trump. Instead, Summit is now stalled because grassroots opposition to the pipeline quickly mobilized to pressure regulators in states the pipeline is proposed to traverse. They’re aiming to deny the company permits and lobbying state legislatures to pass bills banning the use of eminent domain for carbon pipelines. One of those states is South Dakota, where the governor last month signed an eminent domain ban for CO2 pipelines. On Thursday, South Dakota regulators denied key permits for the pipeline for the third time in a row.
Another place where the Summit opposition is working furiously: Iowa, where opposition to the CO2 pipeline network is so intense that it became an issue in the 2020 presidential primary. Regulators in the state have been more willing to greenlight permits for the project, but grassroots activists have pressured many counties into some form of opposition.
The same counties with CO2 pipeline moratoria have enacted bans or land use restrictions on developing various forms of renewables, too. Like Kossuth County, which passed a resolution decrying the use of eminent domain to construct the Summit pipeline – and then three months later enacted a moratorium on utility-scale solar.
I asked Jessica Manzour, a conservation program associate with Sierra Club fighting the Summit pipeline, about this phenomenon earlier this week. She told me that some counties are opposing CO2 pipelines and then suddenly tacking on or pivoting to renewables next. In other cases, counties with a burgeoning opposition to renewables take up the pipeline cause, too. In either case, this general frustration with energy companies developing large plots of land is kicking up dust in places that previously may have had a much lower opposition risk.
“We painted a roadmap with this Summit fight,” said Jess Manzour, a campaigner with Sierra Club involved in organizing opposition to the pipeline at the grassroots level, who said zealous anti-renewables activists and officials are in some cases lumping these items together under a broad umbrella. ”I don’t know if it’s the people pushing for these ordinances, rather than people taking advantage of the situation.”