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We chatted about U.S. Wind’s project off the coast of Ocean City, oil jobs, and the future of the IRA.

I may have met the future of conservative climate politics on Tuesday, and he was standing next to piles of dead fish.
Larry Hogan, a Republican former governor of Maryland, is campaigning for an open Senate seat in one of the bluest states in the country. He faces an uphill run against Angela Alsobrooks, an acolyte of Vice President Kamala Harris and a Black woman who runs one of the state’s most populous and diverse counties, Prince George’s. Before President Biden dropped out as the Democrats’ nominee for president, internal polls indicated that Hogan had a chance; since Biden’s exit, despite Hogan’s name ID from eight years in Annapolis, his chances for victory now appear uncertain.
So I was surprised when, out of the blue, as Democrats were convening in Chicago around Harris as their nominee, Hogan’s team invited me out to a campaign stop along the Chesapeake Bay. Hogan was going to announce new plans on how he’d fight for protecting the Bay if elected, and I’d get to ask the candidate whatever I wanted about … climate. Not the usual offer from a Republican congressional campaign.
Hogan, however, has a long track record of bucking his party on climate change, and could be regarded as one of the most aggressive Republican governors on the issue in modern American history. In 2017, he signed into law one of the nation’s few state-wide fracking bans. In 2018, after then President Trump began pulling the U.S. out of the Paris Agreement, he joined with other states to meet the goals of the accord regardless. Three years later, he oversaw the creation of a plan to reduce Maryland’s emissions 50% by 2030 and achieving “net-zero” by 2045. Those emissions targets happen to be the same ones Alsobrooks has endorsed, too.
I went to his campaign website to see what it says about climate and found almost nothing. Nowhere on Hogan’s website is there a discussion of emissions or energy policy, and climate-related laws like the Inflation Reduction Act barely come up. The only possible reference I can find is one paragraph saying he’d “stand against unaffordable spending and mandates raising [the] cost of energy, food, and basic necessities.”
So I said yes. Not just because I’m a Marylander who deeply cares about the future of the planet, but also because of Hogan’s importance for the future of the IRA. If he somehow found a way to win, he’d be a crucial voice on the future of the landmark climate law, the fate of which will be decided next year as lawmakers look to rewrite tax policy.
That was why, on Tuesday I woke up at the crack of dawn and drove two hours to Tilghman Island, a bucolic enclave popular for fishing and tourism along the eastern shorelines of Maryland. It might’ve been a rural part of the state, but every now and then along my route I’d see an array of solar panels in front of a farm or a house. I arrived at the meeting place to find it was a seafood plant along the water. Hogan arrived right after me in a jet black SUV and exited in attire so casual you’d hardly recognize him as a two-term governor: a simple baseball cap, a dull blue shirt, and, believe it or not, shorts.
I walked alongside Hogan and people who ran the processing plant as they surveyed flats of oyster shells and the guts of catfish I was told were an invasive species in the area. Finally, Hogan and I settled down to chat in an open garage. There are “more Republicans who actually are more environmentally sensitive than you think,” he told me, “but they’re certainly not in the majority, and they’re not the ones getting all the attention. My hope is to try to be a voice to get them to do some of the things we did and focus on.”
Of the IRA himself, he told me, “It concerns me that it was rushed through in a very partisan way without a single Republican vote. I think there are some really good things in it. I think there’s some things that weren’t very well thought out.”
“Like what?” I asked.
“Things that are going to have a more harmful effect on the economy and killing jobs,” he said, adding that “we ought to at least look at how to tweak it.”
That statement puzzled me — recent analysis indicates at least 334,000 new jobs have been created since the law was enacted in 2022. But writ large, the transition to clean energy will mean people lose jobs in the oil and gas industry — was that what he was referring to?
“Yeah. I mean, we’re not ready,” Hogan replied. “It was going to shut down existing industries without any transition period when we didn’t have the ability to provide enough energy to accomplish what we wanted. We just gotta figure out a way to make the transition, but you can’t do it too rapidly or it’s going to have the opposite impact.”
The funny thing about Republicans talking about climate and the IRA is that you essentially need a translator to know their positions. Lawmakers will say one thing on the record to a reporter and then the next minute say the exact opposite thing off the record. The truth is — and I know this from many years of covering Capitol Hill — many Republican politicians support the vast majority of this law and will never admit it.
Most voters today still do not know much about the IRA, or even what the Biden administration has done on climate change. That’s unlikely to change soon as Democrats have so far eschewed mentioning the topic much at all, including during their convention in Chicago this week. Congressional Democrats put a lot of time and effort over the last year into messaging the law and their other signature industrial policy achievements. But for now, it seems it’ll be largely absent from the campaign trail.
Should Republicans take full control of Congress and the presidency, the IRA is in legitimate danger from influential coalitions on the furthest flanks of the right-wing. Think the Heritage Foundation. The Freedom Caucus. The Marjorie Taylor Greenes and Jim Jordans and Lauren Boeberts roaming the halls of the Capitol. These power-brokers have proven through fights over the debt ceiling and government funding that they appear willing to put their votes where their mouths are to satisfy a political base of support that cares less about corporations and climate change than sticking it to liberals and the left. Hogan is correct that the IRA was passed entirely by Democrats without a single Republican vote, making it a ripe target for partisan pummeling.
And yet there’s so much in the IRA that Republicans typically should like. Climate policy that’s heavy on carrots for big business and light on penalties for corporate pollution has long been Republicans’ preferred route. Why does the most moderate Republican candidate for Senate in one of the nation’s bluest states have to bash the climate law at all, let alone claim its killing jobs? I’ll be honest, when I went out to the Bay to meet Hogan, I thought I was about to hear the first major Republican endorsement of the IRA.
I asked John Hart, a fellow Marylander who helps run the conservative climate group C3 Solutions, about why Hogan would claim the IRA is killing jobs when there’s no evidence to back that up. Hart authored a campaign messaging book for Republicans trying to talk about climate change and energy policy without denying the existence of the problem, on the one hand, or alienating their own voters on the other.
“It’s an American cultural and political problem,” Hart told me. “You have to be very cognizant of those head-scratching moments, and you have to address that very clearly.”
There’s two reasons why Republicans like Hogan have to bash the IRA even if they might support a lot of the underlying climate provisions, he said: GOP voters instinctually see such ideas as “picking winners and losers,” and the climate law has been lumped in with other policies like auto regulations that Republicans largely oppose.
“Candidates are viewing it not through the narrow lens of what that legislation alone does, but how it fits into a broader agenda,” Hart added. “With the IRA, [it becomes] part of a broader effort. A lot of Republicans do believe that the Biden administration wants to ban trucks.”
Hogan did not develop his approach to climate action overnight. While as governor, he pushed for reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 50% through 2030, he also opposed going any faster than that. (The legislature ultimately enacted the more aggressive plans without Hogan's signature.) The Alsobrooks campaign has attacked him on this, and in a statement to me said that if elected, “Larry Hogan would give [S]enate Republicans the majority they need to gut the IRA and roll back efforts to protect our environment.”
Blake Kernen, a spokesperson for the Hogan campaign, told me Hogan is “glad the [IRA] created clean energy jobs like he did as Governor in Maryland.” His concerns with the law have to do with “some of the new taxes and overspending in the bill [that] has and will contribute to inflation and job loss, and is disappointed that the bill was forced through a party line vote.”
Governor Hogan also loudly backed wind development off the Maryland coast, which is now a contentious issue along the eastern shore.
Ocean City, a popular vacation destination, is now considering legal action against the federal government if it approves efforts by U.S. Wind, a subsidiary of an Italian wind energy company, to actually build turbines off the state’s coastline. It’s a conflict that mirrors other fights waged by beach communities, resort areas, and fishing hubs against offshore wind. These parts of the country are far removed from cities and often Republican-leaning, and the loudest champions of these grievances have also been prominent GOP politicians. Most notable, of course, has been former President Donald Trump, who’s pledged to halt new permits, but Republican policymakers at all levels from New Jersey, New York, and Virginia, among others, have all been making political hay from wind farm projects in their states.
Hogan has made a name for himself in recent years as a bulwark against Trump and his brand of politics. But when I brought up Ocean City’s legal threat, his passionate support of the town led him to interrupt my question.
“They probably will and probably should [sue]. That’s an example where I was very supportive of wind energy and creating a market for that in our state to create jobs and further the production of wind energy. But on that project, there was not very much transparency. They didn’t work with the local community very much. That’s impacting the fishing industry, the tourism industry, and they’re concerned that their entire livelihoods are going to be ruined.”
Heatmap’s own polling shows the political vulnerability renewable energy faces from the environmental impacts of development. Yet earlier in our interview, Hogan had boasted about the jobs wind has brought to the transportation and logistics hub Tradepoint Atlantic in the Port of Baltimore. He spoke effusively about the jobs in industries like welding that wind development creates. (One tidbit: His campaign released an ad a few days ago featuring a Democrat-registered welder in Baltimore who says they’re voting for Hogan, with no mention of the wind industry.)
In my mind, at least, failing to build those turbines could present a bigger risk to Ocean City in the long run than building them. If we didn’t construct them, it would take away an opportunity to dramatically increase the amount of renewable energy available for Maryland to wean off of carbon-based power. Failing to do so would pose a longer-term threat to the town of Ocean City from sea level rise and intensifying extreme weather.
So I told Hogan that while, as a Marylander, I couldn’t imagine wind turbines at Ocean City, I also couldn’t stop thinking about the trade-offs. I asked him, how does he view those tradeoffs?
Hogan stood firm. “I think you can accomplish the goals without putting them on the beach. I think you move them further out. It’s a pretty simple process. The federal government required them to put them in a place that no one wants. There’s no reason for it.”
This began to sound like some sort of Republican party line, trying to sell voters on a vision of the future that derails the energy transition along the way. But as one of my personal favorite Republican-splainers on energy, Sarah Hunt of the Rainey Center, explained to me, this kind of misconstrues how politics ordinarily works.
The normal thing is that constituents go to their representatives and voice their concerns, and a lot of these beach towns and fishing areas just happen to be Republican. In other parts of the country like Louisiana, where the politicians are more open to offshore oil, they’re similarly supportive of offshore wind.
“I think that is individual to Maryland and specific areas of Maryland,” Hunt told me. “I think offshore wind is a wonderful thing. I think it’s legitimate to say it doesn’t belong everywhere, and I think it’s reasonable to have a process for communities to provide input into the placement of such projects.”
After Hogan and I concluded our interview, I drove home in the gas-powered car I inherited from my late grandparents and passed more solar paneling in front of rural homes. Driving over the Chesapeake Bay, I tried to imagine seeing wind turbines on the horizon one day, and a world where Republicans support tax credits for renewables while fighting to make sure those projects adhere to the Clean Water Act. May we live in interesting times, I guess.
Editor’s note: This story has been updated to reflect that Maryland was already a member of the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative when Hogan became governor.
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The fundraise comes on the heels of a $50 million grant from the Department of Energy.
Almost all lithium-ion batteries on the market rely on graphite for their anodes, more than 90% of which is processed in China. That concentration has created a chokepoint in the Pentagon’s supply chain as the military increasingly turns to batteries to help its transportation network operate more quietly and reduce reliance on complex refueling logistics.
So when Congress passed the latest National Defense Authorization Act at the end of 2025, barring Chinese-linked battery materials from military use starting in 2028, Coreshell saw an opening. While the California-based silicon-anode battery startup had previously focused on automakers as its beachhead customers, it’s now shipping its first battery cells to the military for use on Navy ships and Army ground vehicles. On Wednesday, Coreshell announced a $30 million Series B to scale up manufacturing operations to meet the needs of this growing customer base.
“We’re entering a new stage where we’re no longer, I would say, demand limited,” Coreshell’s CEO Jonathan Tan told me. “This year we’ve had to put on second and third shifts, work nights and weekends, just to get the product out the door.”
Coreshell sets itself apart by going a step further than the NDAA requires. The law doesn’t make suppliers trace battery materials all the way back to the mine, which would be exceedingly difficult given China’s dominance across the battery supply chain. But Coreshell has nevertheless eliminated Chinese sourcing from its anodes by replacing graphite with silicon mined and refined in the U.S. by Ferroglobe, one of its Series A investors.
Ferroglobe and global investment firm Access Industries led the latest round, with defense contractor ADS also joining as a new strategic investor. The financing comes on the heels of a $50 million Department of Energy grant that Coreshell secured in August as part of a program to strengthen the domestic battery supply chain. That funding will support the company’s first commercial-scale facility, a 2-gigawatt-hour factory.
That’s about 20 times the size of the 100-ish-megawatt-hour plant the startup had originally envisioned, as the DOE grant has allowed Coreshell to “expand much further than we were originally expecting,” according to Tan. The company is now evaluating several potential U.S. sites and expects to announce its selection early next year. For now, it relies on unnamed contract manufactures, along with its small pilot line in San Leandro, to produce its cells. But once the gigafactory gets up and running, the startup plans to bring electrode production in house by 2028, followed by full cell assembly in 2029.
Building this plant will ultimately require significant additional capital. But Tan believes this latest vote of confidence from the federal government will help Coreshell to diversify its capital stack as it continues to fundraise. “That’s one of the great things about having such a notable DOE award is that it also allows us to attract multiple forms of capital,” he told me.
Silicon has long been recognized as a promising alternative material for battery anodes, as it can store far more energy than graphite. The catch is that it tends to swell during charging, causing it to break down quickly and ultimately leading to a much shorter cycle life. Coreshell says it’s extended its anode’s lifespan by giving it a proprietary coating, which Tan told me back in April essentially means “painting the inside of your battery” with an ultra-thin protective layer.
Other companies, such as Sila Nanotechnologies and Group14 Technologies, are also working to commercialize silicon anodes. But Coreshell says many of its competitors rely on more highly engineered, expensive forms of silicon, such as silane gas. By contrast, Coreshell uses metallurgical silicon, a cheap, raw commodity already widely used in aluminum alloys. That, Tan argues, gives the company a cost advantage not only over its competitors, but potentially Chinese graphite too.
Coreshell hasn’t yet demonstrated that its cells can meet the performance demands of the automotive industry, however. When the company raised its Series A in early 2025, it said it expected its automotive cells to exceed 1,000 charge cycles while retaining 80% of their original capacity. But Tan told me many defense applications don’t require such demanding performance targets, as Navy ships and ground vehicles are “not intending to have as many miles or missions or use cases on that same battery” as a consumer EV would.
That doesn’t mean the company is abandoning its automotive ambitions. As Tan pointed out, electric vehicles remain by far the largest source of global and domestic battery demand. “It’s natural for us to obviously utilize the security supply chain first,” he told me. “That allowed us to really get to commercialization, revenue, and production faster, because automotive qualification is this longer journey. But ultimately, we want to do both of those and more.”
Current conditions: A large storm is roaring across the Northeast that will shower Michigan and Upstate New York with rain and snow by tomorrow • AccuWeather declared an early end to the 2026 Atlantic hurricane season, which saw 10 named storms and only one hurricane in October, breaking a 121-year record for the latest first hurricane • It’s a mild, cloudy day at the Rethondes Clearing in France’s Forest of Compiègne, where the armistice that ended World War I was signed 108 years ago today.
Inflation is ticking up again, and faster than expected. That’s my colleague Matthew Zeitlin’s read on the latest numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Preliminary data from Heatmap and MIT’s Electricity Price Hub shows that electricity prices in particular spiked nearly 8% to 19.9 cents per kilowatt-hour in October from 18.5 cents in the same month last year. But that’s largely due to a change in the timing of a bill credit in California. Without that, the year over year price jump was just under 4%.

Ontario Power Generation, the state-owned utility in Canada’s most populous province, admitted in a public filing Wednesday that its megaproject to build the first small modular reactor in the rich world is costing a lot more than planned. The company is constructing the world’s first BWRX-300, the flagship reactor from GE Vernova Hitachi Nuclear Energy, at its Darlington plant. The project is an attempt to revive construction of atomic power stations in North America, Europe, and Japan by building the inevitably costly first-of-a-kind unit that can then be replicated at what the developers say will be a decreasing price. Using billions in Canadian ratepayers’ money to essentially de-risk an American-Japanese technology ruffled some feathers among the country’s nuclear boosters, who told me last month they want to see Ottawa approve construction of more of the Canucks’ homegrown reactor. In its latest earnings report, OPG said the BWRX-300, known as DNNP Unit 1, “is no longer expected to achieve the previously disclosed commercial operation date target of October 2030 or be completed with the previously disclosed estimated cost of $7.7 billion.”
Amid a flurry of funding cuts in the early days of the current Trump administration, the Department of Energy canceled an $87 million grant to the green cement startup Sublime Systems. In response, the company sued for damages. This week, the Somerville, Massachusetts-based firm filed legal documents accusing the agency of “refusing to comply with its basic discovery obligations and the schedule” for the case.
“The government has repeatedly delayed responding to Sublime’s discovery requests, and now the government is refusing to even meet and confer with Sublime until some indefinite date in the future,” read the joint status report filed with the U.S. Court of Federal Claims. “The upshot is that, as of today, the government has not produced a single document in response to Sublime’s requests for production (served nearly two months ago), it has provided no timeline by which productions will be completed, and it is refusing to search for core documents related to the May 2025 mass termination at the heart of this case.”
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The Energy Department’s Office of Energy Dominance Financing, formerly the Loan Programs Office, closed a $480 million loan for a Texas-based company’s effort to modernize and boost production from 22 offshore oil and gas platforms in the Gulf of Mexico. Arena Energy, the Woodlands, Texas-based company behind the initiative dubbed Project Elkhorn, said that the initiative will add 38,600 barrels of oil per day and up to 77 million cubic feet of natural gas per day to U.S. energy output.
“The United States is the world’s largest producer and exporter of oil and natural gas, and thanks to President Trump, American energy production will continue to grow,” Secretary of Energy Chris Wright said in a statement. “By providing financing for projects like Project Elkhorn, the Energy Department is expanding domestic production and strengthening our energy security to power American prosperity for decades to come.”
QuantumScape emerged years ago as the frontrunner in the race to commercialize solid-state batteries that last longer, charge more quickly, and function better under harsh conditions than liquid-based lithium-ion packs. On Wednesday, the San Jose, California-based startup unveiled what it called in a press release its “next-generation open platform for all-solid-state batteries.” Dubbed Osprey, the cells “deliver the world’s first public data demonstrating a sulfide-based cathode cycling 1,000 times under just one atmosphere of pressure.” In other words: “an unmatched capability that is necessary for automotive solid-state batteries.”
“Osprey is a next-generation platform that is built on our same core technology, the ceramic separator and anode-free design,” Siva Sivaram, QuantumScape’s chief executive, told me in an email last night. “It will allow us to provide the unique benefits of our ceramic separator to developers of all-solid-state batteries using sulfide-based cathodes.” The company plans to start mass producing its cells in 2028, he said.
Bill Gates boasts that he has committed more of his fortune to fighting climate change than virtually any other rich man in the world. But a new investigation by ProPublica found that he’s ramped up his investments in a landfill company, Republic Services, that spews millions of tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. “It seems very likely that Bill Gates has the power to influence Republic’s behavior to make it more climate-friendly, even if that costs the company profits,” Ann Lipton, a legal scholar who studies corporate governance at the University of Colorado, Boulder, told the outlet.
One of the bill’s Democratic co-authors speaks about the bill’s outlook in Congress, what it means for clean energy and data centers, and why the president it helps most won’t take office until 2029.
The bipartisan permitting reform bill took a big step toward becoming law last night, when more than 70 senators voted to advance it past a key procedural hurdle.
About 12 hours later, I sat down at a Heatmap breakfast event in Washington, D.C. with one of its Democratic coauthors: Senator Martin Heinrich of New Mexico.
Heinrich and I have spoken about permitting and power lines repeatedly over the past year, but what were once niche issues in the space — such as when and whether a president can revoke an energy project’s permits — have turned into major disagreements within and between environmental groups, the clean energy industry, and liberal lawmakers.
At the same time, Heinrich is on the verge of a major climate policy victory with the bill, which would finally create a one-stop shop for large-scale power line approvals in the federal government. The bill would put transmission lines, which can carry zero-carbon electricity, on a more equal footing with natural gas pipelines, which already enjoy fast-track federal approval.
“My goal here is to take the politics out of permitting,” Heinrich told me at the event. “If you’ve done everything right — and you get your final permit to actually construct — you should be able to take that to the bank.”
We discussed the bill path to passage and his replies to some of critics’ biggest arguments against the bill, including whether it will push data centers to build more behind-the-meter natural gas power plants. We also discussed whether Congress should restore the wind and solar tax credits, how this bill was informed by the Biden administration’s struggles, and why Heinrich believes lawmakers should take this deal, now, even though some of his colleagues have urged waiting until the new Congress starts in January.
This conversation has been edited for readability and concision.
How are you feeling? And how are you feeling about the number last night?
Seventy-three is a great number. It suggests we’re on track to get this done. And I think we just need to be patient and let the process play out.
We were talking in the green room a little bit. I think one of the things that worries me about today’s politics is that we’re having this really substantive discussion here, and with members, with the House and Senate back and forth, which is super healthy, and that hasn’t really happened often enough in recent years. And then there’s the algorithmic, online, like, light-everyone’s-hair-on-fire [conversation]. Those two things are completely divergent streams, and they make me worry about democracy as a whole.
Not to mention the fact that we need to be able to build big things in this country, and that’s what this legislation represents. How do you actually deliver on the affordability question that was central to the election we just had? How do we make sure that our country competes in the world? All of those things. But the gap between those two conversations is something that we have to solve for in the politics of today. And there were people who should have been with us [last night] who weren’t, and I think it’s indicative of that gap.
As someone who’s been reporting on the bill, and knows the policy, and knows, for instance, where the fault lines in the policy are, it has been striking how much the social media discussion of the bill has been focused on creating sufficiently plausible lies that go just viral enough to poison the politics. And make it so you can’t even talk about the bill, because, why would you ever even consider such a horrible thing?
It’s been interesting — I’ve got a 23-year-old who’s in graduate school in New Mexico, and he has a really good sense of who I am and what I care about. For him to see protests on his campus, or protests on the overpass in Albuquerque — and how divergent that is from the goals of this legislation — those conversations have been really interesting. I think if I wasn’t so comfortable in what I actually care about, and what I want to get done in my time in Washington, D.C. — which like, this is not my identity, it’s a path to making a change. I think it would be really hard to do this if I weren’t so comfortable in what we need to do on this issue.
In the run-up to last night’s vote, there were a number of endorsements of the bill or the motion to proceed. What was the biggest whip victory for you or Senator Whitehouse?
When you hit above 70, your caucus is taking your work very seriously, and given the attempts to poison the well early on, I was just very encouraged by the fact that in our caucus — we had a caucus meeting over the weekend on this, and then we obviously had the vote last night — there’s a certain implicit trust in a number over 70.
People want to get to yes. They understand that at the end of the day, the American people really do want us to make life cheaper. Like, this election is not a mandate, it’s a job interview, right? And if we can’t deliver on it, and we can’t do the things that make people’s lives better, we’re gonna — it’s going to be very fleeting.
The outside assessments of the bill report numbers anywhere from power grid cost savings in the hundreds of billions to single-digit percentage reductions of power bills in a decade or so. Do you feel like those estimates capture the benefits of the bill, or are the benefits largely unquantifiable?
No, I think they’re quantifiable. I think the emissions reductions are quantifiable.
I think if all we did in this bill was the data center provision, that says you can’t keep exporting your costs onto customers, you actually have to pay your own freight — and that’s not something that the data center developers are all aghast at, I blame some of the utilities for passing those costs along to customers. That’s outrageous. Just because you can ratebase things doesn’t mean you should ratebase things, and the public is fucking pissed off, and they should be — but if all we did is transfer that $35 billion from data center developers into the pockets of consumers, I would be enthusiastic about this bill.
But we do a whole lot more than that, right? There’s almost no conversation right now about the value of virtual power plants and distributed energy resources, and all the changes in leasing for geothermal. There are things that I’ve been working on my entire career that we couldn’t get — well, we still, I guess, haven’t gotten — the public to focus on. But if we can get them done, it really opens up a future for the power grid that looks so different from the power grid I grew up with. I grew up around the kitchen table with an IBEW dad, and we would talk about the power grid all the time. And it was a one-way deal. You had a dam or a coal-fired power plant, and then [electricity] would go out across the big wires, and then it would get into the little wires, and then people in homes and businesses would consume that power. We’re now talking about a two-way power grid that is so much more complicated and efficient than that, and that’s what’s getting lost in this conversation. But it’s also what I’m really excited about.
Let’s talk about the criticism of the bill. You mentioned the data center ratepayer protection policies, which we’ve covered at Heatmap. They are quite substantive. I have begun to hear a concern that they are so substantive that they’ll push data centers even further away from using the grid — that they’ll push data center developers to be like, Oh, this is raising the cost of power, I’m going to build more offsite gas than I would.
I don’t know a single hyperscaler who’s saying that, and we’ve had all these conversations about off-grid behind-the-meter generation. It is so much more expensive. It is so much more difficult to operate and maintain. It’s insane to build a data center that is not connected to the grid. Like, these people now talking about repurposing airplane engines to run data centers — that’s nuts. If you want to put the cost of maintaining that kind of operation, go for it, because it’s going to fail.
It makes sense to have stuff connected to the grid because you don’t have to pay the full freight of the worst day of the entire year, and spread that over the rest of the year. That’s why we have a grid. I just don’t see that as a viable business plan for anyone.
This bill makes it easier to build federal infrastructure projects. I’ve seen people say, ‘Look, if we do this now, then the president gets two years to build whatever he wants, and that includes ICE detention centers.’
No. We have walked through the legal cases in places like New Jersey to make sure that we’re not facilitating that.
I don’t think this bill will measurably change what this president can accomplish because it’s going to take multiple years … Like right now, it takes two decades to build a really important interregional transmission line. It’s still going to take five years after this bill. This is not some magic wand. It’s way better. It makes us much more competitive against China and our near-peer competitors around the globe. But you’re still going to take multiple years to do an [Environmental Impact Statement]. So this is not going to impact this president measurably one way or the other.
But it is going to measurably impact the next president. And I can tell you, as someone who was around for the Biden administration, we passed incredible legislation. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the [Inflation Reduction Act] were huge lifts in terms of legislation. But the president of the United States could not deliver on those promises because the permitting regime was a 10-year-plus regime. So even though he had all the funding you could imagine, and you had [the Department of Energy] and the Department of Interior all lined up, President Biden could not deliver on those promises in a time frame that the American people could appreciate.
Is that because of procedure or because of staffing? Because some people have responded to this bill by saying, ‘Well, we know we have to staff up these agencies, and this bill doesn’t do that.’ If Biden had been able to staff those agencies, would they have been able to move a lot faster?
They would have been able to move measurably faster, yeah, but it would not be sufficient. I’m all for restaffing those agencies. We authorize a lot more funding for things like Tribal and state historic preservation officers in this legislation, but it wouldn’t have been sufficient. It just wouldn’t have.
And you look at — I mean, the fact on SunZia, which, you’re as educated on that transmission line as anybody I’ve met in the press. It took, what, 17 years [to permit]? That’s one of the best projects that I’ve ever interacted with. It was 3.6 gigawatts of clean power. They did a great job of doing mitigation. They bought property that had enormous environmental value in my state. They engaged with stakeholders as well as any developer I’ve ever seen, like 17 to 18 years [to permit it]? That’s nuts. We can’t iterate on that kind of a timescale. I mean, John Podesta came back into the White House under the Biden administration and was like, ‘Didn’t we do this? I thought we already did this.’ It took two records of decision. That’s just not a recipe for success.
You mentioned [Biden’s former climate adviser] John Podesta. We reported on comments he made saying this bill would not allow a president to reverse a permit that had been granted illegally.
No, that’s not true. If you don’t follow the law, the permit can be overturned. So first and foremost, you have to have fidelity to the actual underlying statute. So if you violate the Mineral Leasing Act, or you violate some other statute that determines how you get that permit, you’re done. That’s real jeopardy.
Second, you can overturn anything up to the final permit. So if there’s a lease along the way, the next administration can overturn that.
But if you’ve done everything right — and you get your final permit to actually construct — you should be able to take that to the bank. In what world can you do everything right and then you get a legal right to proceed, and anybody, for politics, can pull that out? I know that some in the environmental space think that it should be that way, and we should be able to ping-pong back and forth between Trump and Biden. My goal here is to take the politics out of permitting. So if you do everything right — by the book and by the law — at the end of the day, if you get your permit, you can actually take that to the bank.
One of the big arguments for this bill was this permitting certainty provision. Ending the back-and-forth, and making it so a future president couldn’t do what Trump has done to wind energy. It’s been interesting watching the politics of this bill develop, though, because what’s become clear is — as you just hinted — not everyone actually wants permitting certainty.
No, and it cuts both ways. That is both a positive, depending on your perspective … and if your business model is litigating projects, it’s going to be harder. You can still litigate, but you can’t wait six years to do it.
I have heard folks say, ‘Look, it’s a big bill. It’s 400-something pages. It makes changes to NEPA and the National Historic Preservation Act. It makes changes to the Clean Water Act. The Supreme Court is controlled by conservatives at the moment, and they have been willing to improvise with big new doctrines such as the major questions doctrine. How can we be sure — and how can you be sure — that you’re not writing traps into these laws that courts will come along and use in the future?’ Republican judges may not agree with your aims, but they’ll be able to say, ‘Look at this recent and specific law, it lets presidents do X.’
We need to be able to legislate. I think the more we actually assert our political potential and mandate in legislation, the more we take power from the Supreme Court and from the judiciary in general. I think we need to be very careful and specific about our language. But the more you can’t get things done in Congress, the more power just sort of shifts over to the judiciary and to the administration. We need to claw that back, and we need to show that America can do stuff, that we can build big things again.
And to the extent that we’re not willing to do that, that power is going to shift to other places, and I’m not comfortable with that. I don’t think that’s good for democracy. I don’t think it’s good for our country. I don’t think it’s good for building things. We need to get [a project] to yes, or if it’s going to fail, if it’s a bad project, fail fast. Move on and to the right. This is not about greenlighting bad projects. It’s honestly about getting the projects into the right places.
What’s something you’re excited about in the bill that you feel like hasn’t been discovered yet?
Virtual power plants. I mean, I hate the term “virtual power plants” because they’re not virtual; they’re real. If you’ve got a gigawatt that you can you can contract with someone to say, ‘Hey, when I need this power, it’s there,’ and they can produce on that based on whether they like turn off half the lights in in a Walmart, or tap into the batteries in a bunch of electric vehicles, that is real power, and it has enormous value to the grid.
I know how conservative utility culture is, because I grew up in utility culture. I saw it every day in those conversations with my dad around the dinner table — but that is real demonstrable technology that we all know works at this point, and yet most of the utilities in the country have not embraced it. So if we get this done, we’ll be able to respond to the wholesale markets and [they] can’t be blocked, that’s a huge change.
One of the interesting things about this midterm is that almost all the incoming Democrats, I think certainly in the Senate, have pledged to restore the solar and wind tax credits. Have you done any work on what this bill would mean if those tax credits were back on the books?
I think we need to have a really robust discussion around that. I say that from the point of view that, we don’t have the [tax credits] right now, and yet we have tons of viable projects in wind and solar. So what that says to me is, maybe that money is more valuable someplace else.
We’re doing a really good job in this country of decarbonizing the electric generation sector with wind, solar, and batteries. I think we’ve won that battle, and if we have a level playing field, which is what this bill is all about, we’re going to decarbonize the power sector. We have not decarbonized the transportation sector. We have not decarbonized the industrial sector, which is dependent on, in many cases, chemical processes.
The question for me is not, do I want the wind sector, or the solar sector to move faster? I think if we get out of the way, they’ll move faster. The question is, would those dollars be more valuable in another sector of the economy?
Because when I look around back home, we are in the new normal. We’re in the part of climate change that I didn’t think would happen in my lifetime. In New Mexico, we’ve been the driest we’ve ever been in 1,200 years. And then once El Niño kicks in, we’ve had two of the word floods in recorded history in the last month. That’s where we are today. That’s what our grandkids are going to know for their entire lives. We’ve got to solve for that, and limit the worst cases of that, and we’re not going to do it by doing the least effective, least efficient thing. We have to invest in the places that make the biggest differences.
Senator Merkley voted no yesterday, as you know, and in his statement he said that the bill is very interesting, we should pick it up next year in the new Congress.
How many times has that worked?
I think one argument has been —
I’ve seen that over and over again. I’ve been here since 2008. How many years is that? Almost 20 years. When is that a real thing?
We should do a lot more in the next Congress. Let’s do that. Let’s get this as the floor, and then let’s raise the floor everywhere we possibly can.
And you don’t think passing this now will exhaust the president’s willingness to work on permitting reform?
I will take a win with the president wherever I can get one because it is fleeting, and he is what he is. He did not help last night. My phone blew up. The White House was like, you know, ‘Sorry, he just says stuff.’
[laughter in the room]
We have an alignment right now — the House, the Senate, and the White House — that has real value to making energy cheaper and putting more clean energy online. We should just take that because it also creates uncertainty for other folks. When we have that opportunity, don’t kick it to the curb. It is what it is.
Do you think the president needs to approve these projects for the bill to make sense?
No, because I think the greatest value is for the next president. But we are seeing real progress on real projects right now. We have seen dozens of projects approved that were stalled out. We’re having constructive conversations about many additional projects. That has its own value, but the value of this bill, in my view, is for the next president of the United States — whoever they are — and I will do everything in my power to make sure that that’s a Democrat — but if it’s not, they still need to be able to govern and compete with the rest of the world, and so the value is really for the country and the next president.
Give us a sense of what the amendment process will look like.
I don’t know what the amendment process is going to look like because that typically gets negotiated between the majority and the minority leaders. My view is that amendments are helpful. I think we’ve gotten away from amendment processes in the Senate, and that has not served legislation well. So I’m perfectly comfortable. I’ve told a number of members who want amendments that I’m supportive of them getting those amendments, because I think it lets people make their case about what they care about, and that creates buy-in for eventual legislation. And whether we win over those members or not, I think it has value.
The downside is we let things hang out there at a time when much of the conversation is still governed by these social media algorithms. But I still think it’s the right thing to do.
What does the path in the House look like, as you’re thinking about it today?
In the House, it’s the coalition of, one, the White House actually wants this, and they’re communicating with Republicans in the House, many of which won’t be there next year. So, like, go out on a win. Then on the Democratic side, you have the New Dems and the Problem Solvers Caucus and the Blue Dogs, and like, We’re not going to get all of the Democrats, but we’re going to get enough of the Democrats who believe in governing and who want the lessons of this election cycle to actually be manifest in law. I think we very much have a viable path in the House of Representatives.