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Podcast

What a Permitting Reform Deal Could Look Like

Rob talks with Daniel Palken, the director of infrastructure for energy and permitting at Arnold Ventures, about the policies that would probably make up a grand bargain.

The Capitol.
Heatmap Illustration/Getty Images

There’s really one one good thing that could happen this year in Congress for clean energy: permitting reform. If lawmakers reached a bipartisan deal on the country’s permitting system, they could make it easier to build solar, wind, and transmission lines — as well as every other kind of infrastructure.

But will it happen? What are the obstacles to a deal? What would be in a deal? On this episode of Shift Key, Rob is joined by Daniel Palken, the director of infrastructure for energy and permitting at Arnold Ventures. They discuss the recent history of permitting reform, the policies that would probably make up a deal, and why it might be now or never for reforming the permitting system.

Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News.

Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Here is an excerpt from their conversation:

Robinson Meyer: Something I've heard about this go at permitting reform is that this might be it. Now, maybe that isn't true. But what I've heard is basically, you know, next Congress, it's unlikely to be as productive for permitting reform as this Congress will be. Of course, something I've also heard is that if Democrats want to set themselves up to do big public investments in the energy system, when the next president takes office, whoever that may be in 2029, then you need to get the statutory changes. And now because the implementation will then take long enough that it won't really start to kick in until 29.

But why is it important that this happens now that this Congress finds a deal as opposed to future Congresses?

Daniel Palken: This goes back to more inside baseball, but like, you know, the Senator Whitehouse and Senator Heinrich, we mentioned near the top are two Democratic senators who are really eager to find if there's a workable bipartisan space for a deal by all outward indications. You know, it's not a given that every Democrat and every Republican, for that matter, you know, feels exactly that way. So part of it is just we have a cadre of four senators at the top of these committees on both Democratic and Republican side who are really approaching this constructively and in good faith. That doesn't mean success is guaranteed, but there's going to be turnover next Congress. So with Senator Durbin, who's currently the head of the Judiciary Committee retiring, there seems to be a good likelihood that Senator Whitehouse will head over to the Judiciary Committee. And then you'll likely get someone like Senator Merkley atop the Environment and Public Works Committee. Now, Senator Merkley is by some measures on environmental issues, the most progressive senator.

It just may be hard for him to find a bipartisan deal space between someone like Senator Merkley on the one hand and something that like President Trump might sign off on on the other hand. The usual status quo in D.C., the default assumption we should have is that there's a non-overlapping Venn diagram space between Democrats and Republicans on any given issue that like isn't NDAA and doesn't have to pass. And the reason we know that is because most issues don't pass major reforms in their space most years. And so the presumption should be that it's very hard to pass something. And then in the House, you have a situation where, you know, if you go on polymarket, it will tell you that Democrats have a meaningfully better than not chance of taking the House. And I think that the people who will chair the relevant House committees, I think there's some level of interest in exploring permitting reform, but they haven't been at it, you know, for as long in the way that Senator Whitehouse and Heinrich have. And I kind of think that we have been very blessed with some senators atop these committees now that really have a vision on this, right?

I haven't said this explicitly, but one of the things that really is the motive force that is enabling permitting to happen is that both sides don't agree on much, but they agree on one crucial fact, which is that their resources are better than the other side's resources. Republicans have an absolute conviction that in a free market that, you know, gas and coal and sometimes nuclear will outcompete, you know, Democrats' resources. And Democrats have an absolute conviction that wind and solar and sometimes nuclear will out-compete Republicans' resources. And, you know, the market is going to determine who is correct on that. But the fact that both sides – and it's good that both sides – we would want – you know, it would be weird if people were supporting resources they had no confidence in. The fact that both sides have confidence in their resources is kind of what is enabling this to happen in the first place. Because if either side, like, firmly believed that the other side's resources were better, they wouldn't want to do something necessarily that enables the other side.

So those are kind of the elements of what I think makes this Congress a particularly ripe environment. And also there's one other thing, which is next Congress is a presidential election cycle. And it's harder to do something much harder the closer you get to a presidential election where everybody's distracted versus a congressional midterm election.

You can find a full transcript of the episode here.

Mentioned:

The FREEDOM Act, which would limit the president’s ability to yank permits

Rob’s SunZia story: The Long, Strange Success Story of America’s Biggest Clean Energy Project

Why the National Historic Preservation Act falls harder on transmission projects than pipelines

Previously on Heatmap: What Is Permitting Reform? Here’s a Cheat Sheet.

This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by ...

Tandem PV is the leader in perovskite solar technology. We’re building the most efficient and durable perovskite solar panels on the market at our factory in Freemont, California. Learn how we're restoring U.S. leadership for the next era of solar manufacturing at tandempv.com.

Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow

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