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Robinson Meyer:
Hello, it is Wednesday, June 24, and the Iran war has entered a new phase. The United States and Iran are reportedly conducting talks in Switzerland. We’re now in this period of so-called technical negotiations that are supposed to resolve the permanent status of the Strait of Hormuz and Iran’s nuclear program. So that’s, you know, small stuff, and I’m sure we’ll work it out. I want to talk in this episode, though, about what just happened. The past 110 days, give or take, of war between the U.S. and Iran, and the most important thing that I think we learned during that war. This show is about a phenomenon that I think has not gotten enough play compared to its enormous importance. And that is that China helped save the world from economic calamity. China, as you’ll hear in this episode, primarily buffeted the world from the economic impacts of Trump’s war of choice in Iran.
Robinson Meyer:
And the implications of that are really massive. So you’ll remember at the beginning of the war, a lot of energy experts, including those we had here on Shift Key, talked about how oil was going to hit $150 or $200 a barrel. Iran had just closed the Strait of Hormuz. It was the biggest supply shock to the oil market in history, and everyone expected the biggest price shock in the oil market in history to follow. But then it didn’t happen. Brent, the global oil benchmark, peaked around $115 a barrel on May 4. And of course, it shot up right after Iran closed the Strait of Hormuz, but it was very volatile. And it never hit $140 or $150 or $160 a barrel, which people were predicting. Gas prices obviously went up here in the U.S., but we never got $7 or $8 gas in most of the country. Europe was at one point forecast to run out of jet fuel. It never actually did that. So why? Why did we have this huge supply crisis in the oil market, but no comparative price crisis? Well, we know it has something to do with China. We know that starting around the same time that Iran closed the Strait of Hormuz, China significantly cut down its oil imports by something like 3 million to 5 million barrels a day. That is, for context, a huge amount of oil. It’s about three to five percent of global oil demand.
Robinson Meyer:
But we also know during this period, China didn’t seem to use less oil. And that means China was releasing oil. It was making 3 million to 5 million barrels a day of oil appear from somewhere. Where? How did it do that? Well, you’ll hear in this show, at least you’ll hear as best as we can figure it out. But the results mean a lot for the future of everything, actually. They mean a lot for the future of climate change and climate policy, for the future of the energy industry and oil in particular, for the future of the global economy and the modern geopolitical order. The ramifications of what China did are so massive that they’re mind-boggling to think about.
Robinson Meyer:
And luckily, we have a great guest to think about them with. Rory Johnston is an oil market researcher in Canada and the author of the Commodity Context newsletter. He’s someone who, as you know, we often have on the show to talk about changes in the oil market. And today on this show, we’re going to talk about what might have just happened, why it may have happened and what it means for the future. I’m going to ask you to stick with us because the beginning of this show is a little wonky. We talk about satellite data, we count some barrels, we talk about like, why we know how anything that’s happening in the global economy is actually happening. But at the end, we get somewhere really interesting and really important, I think, if you’re someone who works in the energy industry or cares about the energy industry or thinks about the future of climate policy and decarbonization and carbon emissions. So I’m Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News, and all that and more, it’s all coming up on Shift Key.
Robinson Meyer:
Roy Johnston, welcome to Shift Key.
Rory Johnston:
Thanks for having me back.
Robinson Meyer:
It’s great to have you back. I feel like you’re becoming our, I don’t know, is resident barrel counter like a flattering or offensive thing to say? Is that what you?
Rory Johnston:
So a lot of people say it pejoratively. I take barrel counter as like a mark of honor. Yeah, I can be actually the resident fossil guy on Shift Key.
Robinson Meyer:
I just appreciate, you know, always with the quantitative data, which speaking of which. So the Iran war began. Iran closed the Strait of Hormuz. We had you on the show back then, I believe. And you, like many energy analysts and us, we’re freaking out. Yep. Because the world lost access to, what, 10%, 30%?
Rory Johnston:
So to the barrel counter name, let’s count the barrels. So of the total initial hit of 20 million barrels a day, which is roughly 20% of global supply, we knew at the gate that we weren’t going to lose all of it. And I think as we talked about the podcast at the time, we had known offset capability. or a rerouting capability, the Saudi East-West pipeline, this Emirati pipeline to the Gulf of Oman that terminates at the port of Fujairah. And over that period, for much of it, we still had Iranian exports kind of chugging through the strait given the recent sanctions relief. But overall, the net impact that had durably impacted the market for the duration of this crisis was a 13 million barrel a day production shut up. So this is all the barrels that weren’t able to get rerouted, and they weren’t able to get exported out of the Gulf, so they were basically forcibly shut in. So the gross hit to the global supply was roughly 13 million barrels a day, give or take, which is by far the largest single shock on supply in the history of the market.
Robinson Meyer:
And so we all expected oil to go to approximately a bajillion dollars, give or take a bajillion dollars. And it didn’t. It peaked, what, in the $130s? And one of the big reasons for this is that China significantly cut its imports. In fact, I think the sense is the primary reason that oil was able, the oil, global oil market was able to weather such a huge supply shock is a number of countries tapped their strategic oil reserves, including the United States. It was the largest synchronized release of oil from IEA.
Rory Johnston:
Yeah, from the IEA member states, roughly 400 million barrels.
Robinson Meyer:
Yes, exactly. So there was this huge release of oil from the IEA kind of combined member states oil reserves. But China, which is not an IEA member state, also significantly reduced its oil imports and specifically reduced them from 11 million barrels a day as a kind of antebellum status quo ante to 7.8 million barrels a day in May. And so China was able to vaporize 3 million barrels a day of oil demand. I want to hear your take. But insofar as I understand it, this is the primary reason that oil never went to $200 or $300 or a bajillion dollars, was that China was able to go in and release not only crude, but presumably some refined fuels, too, from its strategic petroleum reserve and also do some magic on demand destruction. China was able to destroy a huge amount of its demand for oil. And this act of economic policymaking from China basically saved the world. And I would add Donald Trump from the biggest oil price shock ever, given that we were dealing with the biggest oil supply shock ever. And my question to you, Rory, is how did they do this?
Rory Johnston:
Yeah. And let’s just back up one second and kind of say, like, the reason we thought we were going to get the bajillion dollars, the $150 or I said, $200 a barrel we could get through this if it was sustained.
Robinson Meyer:
And I was at Sierra Week and I remember someone saying to me, gas in the U.S. could hit $7 a gallon, $8 a gallon. And once that happens, anything is possible politically.
Rory Johnston:
Exactly. And I think the reason we were worried about those levels and I thought we could get there is that if we’re drawing down by that, say, 13 million barrels, even netting for the fact that we had a surplus going into this, you were going to so rapidly approach tank bottoms of inventory that you’re going to need to forcibly destroy demand. What China did, and this is where we get to China, China was by far the single largest swing in that global balance. So, you know, of the IEA release of that 400 million barrels, really only what we’re counting is the actual pace of releases between the United States and Japan and a few others. Those only really ever reached, say, three-ish million barrels a day of total outflow at their peak. China’s implied swing is upwards of five million barrels a day. And just to give you a sense, so the numbers that you quote were from the official from the national, basically Chinese Customs Bureau. We’re watching more of the kind of satellite and tanker tracking data, which for the three months prior to the war, they were importing roughly 11.5 million barrels a day of crude.
Rory Johnston:
Via seaborne means. So doesn’t count the pipelines and everything else. So that could be a little wishy-washy there as well. But just to what we can see there, and that has fallen to, on average through June, 6 million barrels a day. So over 5 million barrels a day of delta there. Massive, massive, massive swing. And by far larger than any of the other, basically the equivalent of the entire shift of the Saudi East-West pipeline, China did through import demand destruction alone. I want to stress here, import demand destruction, because demand destruction, I think when people think about it, they think people aren’t driving, people aren’t flying, etc. And the strange thing about this is that as far as we can see, Chinese consumers are still driving. Trucks are still on the roads. Airplanes are still in the sky. All of these things that we would have normally associated with a demand contraction of the scale aren’t occurring. So let’s kind of go through the various steps here, because we’ve seen this kind of, let’s just say for round numbers, five million barrel a day contraction in from pre-war levels. We’ve seen refining run rates fall by, let’s say, three to three and a half million.
Robinson Meyer:
Is this in China?
Rory Johnston:
We’ve seen this in China. Yeah, everything. What we’ll talk about the next little while is just China. Refining run rates in China fell by 3 million, 3.5 million barrels a day. Over this period, right now, Chinese visible crude inventories continue to build for the first half of the crisis and have only now started coming down a little bit. The ones we can see, and this is an important distinction, the ones we can see, are roughly today standing where they were at the beginning of March. But the implied difference between the run rate change and the implied change in the imports is 1.5 million to 2 million barrels a day. So where did those other barrels come from?
Robinson Meyer:
In other words, the visible Chinese supply is where it was in March today.
Rory Johnston:
Yeah, the visible Chinese stocks. So these are the inventories. And I think let’s just dwell for a second what we mean by visible and why that’s important in this context. So China, unlike the United States, unlike Canada, and like most other kind of advanced Western countries, does not publish official data on, importantly in this context, either inventories or domestic demand.
Rory Johnston:
So with both of those, we are left to kind of infer from shadows and estimates to what’s actually going on inside China. So when we talk about visible crude stocks, what we’re talking about is the stockpiles of oil that are held in above ground storage tanks with floating roofs. And the floating roofs are important because we can use satellite imagery to infer how full those tanks are. Whether optically via like the size of the shadow, the lower they are, the bigger the shadow cast across the top of the tank, which is very cool stuff. And even more cool recently, you have like SAR satellites that can measure very specifically the difference in the kind of radar pinging off the top of the roof and the radar pinging off the top of basically the catwalk that goes around the top of the roof. So you can measure the distance between that. So of a total Chinese crude storage that we know of of say 1.1 billion barrels, give or take, those held in strategic underground stocks that we know of, very important here, are roughly 131 million barrels across six underground sites. Now, by definition, we cannot see these underground sites. They do not have floating roofs. The implication here is that if we know that supply is coming from somewhere else in the system, but we’re not drawing, or by we, I mean, China here is not drawing down visible commercial crude stocks, the kind of Occam’s Razor is that they’re drawing down by stocks we can’t see. These are the underground stocks.
Rory Johnston:
But the draws don’t end there. I mentioned China also doesn’t have official demand data.
Rory Johnston:
So what we are left with is deriving apparent demand data for China, which is essentially a domestic disappearance calculation. They do report, for instance, refining production. They report refining runs. They report refining production of, say, gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, etc. And you can net those refinery outputs with trade to get basically how much there should be in the economy that’s disappearing. Net it, of course, for those inventories we can’t see. Now, those run rates and those outputs, the biggest factor by far in the calculation of these apparent demand, those are down 3 million to 3.5 million barrels a day.
Rory Johnston:
That implies a demand-destructive event in China at the scale of what we saw at the beginning of 2020 during COVID Zero. That’s the scale of what we’re seeing. It would be equivalent to the largest contraction in Chinese history, at least modern history that we’re aware of. But strangely, if you, you know, obviously we knew about COVID Zero. There, you know, there were endless stories about COVID Zero at the time. We knew that they were like literally spraying bleach on the roads and like no one was going anywhere. And they’re like robots that tracked you and kept you in your house. Like, this isn’t happening now. So the assumption is that it’s just price alone that’s driving this kind of demand destruction. But here again is where it gets weird because Chinese domestic policy and regulations for fuel prices have capped or basically throttled the rate at which domestic petrol prices can rise. So while global gasoline diesel prices effectively doubled through this crisis.
Rory Johnston:
Prices of petrol in Beijing are only up by, at their peak, 30%. So it would be very strange to get a COVID Zero demand destructive event driven by only a 30% increase in prices. It doesn’t make sense. What it does make sense of those domestic product prices do drive the reduction in refining runs because all of a sudden your crude feedstock’s really expensive and your domestic market is really, really cheap. So your effective refining margin, your profitability has collapsed into deeply negative territory. Now, it’s important before I get too kind of heavy hand on the numbers to kind of say that there are little bits that we can theorize that they could actually destroy demand from a kind of a top-down approach. You know, a lot of Chinese oil demand is in the petrochemical sector.
Rory Johnston:
And you’ve seen some degree of capacity to either say, let’s throttle down Petchem run rates and just run off of inventories of intermediates, It’s still an inventory draw, but it’s not a strictly oil inventory draw. So sure, maybe you can also have feedstock diversification that you’ve seen natural gas feedstocks filling in potentially for oil feedstock.
Robinson Meyer:
So the whole story here is that they could take instead of taking oil or crude oil and turning it into plastics or other forms of chemicals, pharmaceuticals, they could be, first of all, just throttling the amount of chemicals they’re making, period. Or they could be taking natural gas or they could be taking, maybe this is where you’re going. But we also know that they’ve built up a really big coal to chemical sector. And they’ve been using that too.
Rory Johnston:
Exactly. And really at the end of the day, whether it’s oil, gas, coal, all fundamentally the same chemistry, just in different kind of physical forms. It’s all hydrocarbons all the way, you know, it’s all hydrocarbons all the way down, right? And I think that that does allow some flux, particularly in the chemical space where it’s like, it’s really, it’s trickier to say, make diesel out of coal. But various chemical precursors, yeah, I think that’s very, very plausible. Again, though, I think it’s unlikely that it’s five million barrels a day worth like that. We’re talking like that’s that’s more demand than Canada and Mexico combined as like a red off the top. Like we’re talking huge volumes.
Robinson Meyer:
Is it five or three that we’re trying to explain?
Rory Johnston:
I would say five because I would say from again, this the data we have in China so far only goes through May. And again, I tend to prefer independent references. So that’s where I go. I’m using Kpler data. It’s a tanker tracking company. They show that crude imports have fallen. Again, average of December, January, February was about 11.5 million barrels a day. And as of June, month date average, we’re down to 6.07. So almost halved. Yeah, there’s some wiggle room here. Maybe they were building some stocks prior. Like, again, there’s so much that we don’t know about China. There’s wiggle room around here. But I think the important thing is the scale cannot be explained. So something has to be releasing somewhere along the way. And people are like, well, Rory, haven’t you been following, and I’m sure you guys on Shift Key have been following this, that China has more than 50% sales penetration in new energy vehicles? Or we’ve seen EVs and natural gas-powered vehicles penetrating deeper into the truck fleet.
Robinson Meyer:
We talk about demand destruction, But there’s really two kinds of demand destruction, right? There’s at least I think of it this way in my head. Maybe these are not industry terms, but there’s like temporary demand destruction, which are all the things people do when gas gets expensive, which is you fly less, you carpool, you, you know, put different trips together on one time when you leave the house, right? There’s like temporary demand destruction where you are as consumers or as a country or as a government trying to reduce your short term purchases of liquid fuels. And then there’s permanent demand destruction, which is like you get really tired of having to think about all of that and manage it in your head. So you buy a Prius or a Tesla or an Ioniq and you switch to an EV or you as a Chinese consumer decide that instead of flying home to see your parents, you are going to take a slightly longer set of high-speed rail trips, right? And so anyway, this is just to say that there is this temporary versus permanent demand destruction dynamic. And indeed, one of the questions here, which I think you’re just about to answer for us, is like China has this incredibly successful electrified vehicle sector. How much of that can explain this 5 million barrel a day discrepancy?
Rory Johnston:
And the answer is maybe a little bit, but by far not all of it. Because the implication is, right, sales penetration doesn’t consume fuel. Vehicle stocks, the fleet composition consumes fuel. So yes, we have seen a massive penetration of EVs in China leading the world. But in terms of the overall total fleet on the ground, you’re still something in the realm of 10 to 1 internal combustion engines to new energy vehicles. So unless Beijing was hiding 400 million EVs in a warehouse somewhere, and they just were like, oh, Hormuz is closed. Release the EVs. Said in the Oprah release the bees voice for all that are curious.
Robinson Meyer:
Yes, everyone reached under there.
Rory Johnston:
But I think that unless that happened, and again, no one reported on it. I would expect Heatmap would have been reporting on the massive fleet of secret Chinese EVs that entered the system all of a sudden.
Robinson Meyer:
And I think one of the dynamics here, right, is that it’s not even like it was during COVID. During COVID, this was feasible, too. Like, we can talk to people in China. We know what the consumer gasoline price is in Beijing. We know how much people are on the roads. And so we know from talking to people in China, from the fact that you can fly to China, enter China, and leave China during the past 107, 108 days that the war happened. We know from all of that, that like there is not a COVID Zero level demand destruction event happening, nor has there been some massive demand change to the daily rhythms of life or some massive release of EVs, for instance, that would affect oil demand on the scale of 5 million barrels a day.
Rory Johnston:
Exactly. And again, I think so much of this is plausible over years, but not in two months. Right. I think that’s it’s a scale in the pace of change that would have absolutely been apparent in so many ways. Now, we do see some signs of what you’re talking about. We have seen, And for instance, through May, we did see a decrease from, you know, a year ago and particularly earlier this year, levels of flights in China. And we knew this was going to come because even outside of just spending and elasticity of demand, we saw that through April and early, you know, March and April, there was the concern about the actual shortage of jet fuel, and Chinese carriers canceled various routes and various flights. So that is just a kind of a wholesale kind of reduction there. And you did see a commensurate increase in, say, rail transit. So some of what you’re talking about did happen. But again, that’s only like a tiny piece of a tiny sector of the overall kind of base we’re talking about here.
Robinson Meyer:
Do we have any numerical estimates of how much behavioral change could have shaved off oil demand? In China?
Rory Johnston:
You know, it’s hard. I mean, it’s like, we can guess, but maybe the behavioral change was 25%, maybe. But I think that might even be too charitable. Because again, if you’re thinking about behavioral change, what drives behavioral change? Prices. And prices, as we were saying earlier, weren’t that much higher. Like there was a comment for a while that like maybe some Chinese households have an EV and internal combustion engine and higher prices mean they drive the EV more than the internal combustion engine. Okay, plausible. But again, is it enough of a price incentive to vastly kind of see a sea change in that relative usage, it just doesn’t seem likely. You have to assume a much higher demand of price elasticity in China than we’ve seen ever demonstrated before. So I think all of this is just, you know, there’s just a huge amount of oil here we’re talking about. I mean, just to give you a sense, running this estimate earlier just today before I jump from the call to give you a nice round number in terms of we’re using that 11 and a half million barrels a day and the three months pre-war as our average baseline, The reduction across months was 1.3 million barrels a day reduced in March, 3.3 million barrels a day reduced in April, then 4.7 million in May, and then 5.4 in June. And again, this is all based on Seabourn tanker imports.
Rory Johnston:
In total over that period, the cumulative total is somewhere in the ballpark of like 400 to 500 million barrels. That’s a lot of oil that you have to kind of make up for through this system. And that’s where we kind of come back to this assumption that like the Occam’s Razor here is that inventories have been drawn down, particularly on the product side.
Robinson Meyer:
So just to make sure I understand it, China, from very early March when the Strait of Hormuz is closed to sometime last week, eliminates in total an implied 400 million to 500 million barrels of oil demand. That is actually on the same order of magnitude as the IEA-organized release of... Oil from strategic petroleum reserves across 32 countries, including the U.S. So it’s very, very, very big. It’s like the same size as the largest supply intervention from Western governments ever in the oil market.
Rory Johnston:
And I should also say it’s actually larger than what we’ve seen released by the IA countries and collective because that was the total announced release. And that included some really weird stuff like Canada had a contribution to that. Canada does not have a strategic petroleum reserve. We have the oil sands. So what they ought to pledge was like, Oh, there will be some like heavier maintenance in the oil sands. I haven’t seen it. So like all of these numbers, it’s a little bit of like hand waviness. We’ve definitely seen a massive drawdown from the U.S. And we’ve definitely seen the largest ever drawdown from Japan. But European as well, we’ve seen maybe some, but like European SPRs are not, like the big pool of government out of oil that you’d expect stateside. They’re more like commercial stocks where the government tells you, you have to hold a certain amount in reserve for strategic purposes. And when they release it, they just say, you don’t need to hold that oil anymore. But theoretically, it’s many industry participants. They’re going to want to hold it in a period of scarcity. They just don’t have to hold it anymore. So it’s this weirdness where so I would actually say net net China has contributed more of a demand solve or more of a supply solve in this sense. If we assume it’s all SPR, more of a supply solve in the entirety of the Western nations combined.
Robinson Meyer:
And I want to add one more piece of context here, which is U.S. Authorized capacity for the American Strategic Petroleum Reserve. And this means as big as it could possibly, as big as Congress has said it could go. Who knows if, you know, the DOD or DOE has kind of some extra salt caves we haven’t heard about. But as big as the publicly disclosed authorized capacity for the U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve is 714 million barrels. And so the Chinese release, it’s basically if they had, it’s on the scale of if the U.S. released its entire Strategic Petroleum Reserve, more or less, you know, give or take a hundred or two million barrels. So what this means, right, is that China had a — and I want to talk about in a second whether we knew this was here, whether we knew they could do this. But first, I just want to make sure we actually put a button on this. China has strategic petroleum reserves, undisclosed, on the scale of at least half a billion barrels, or 400 million to 500 million barrels. These reserves presumably encompass both unrefined crude and products, and it has an ability to release them without, you know, kind of public fanfare, let’s say. It can tap these without making them visible.
Rory Johnston:
Bragging about it. I mean, they’re not bragging about it. Yes.
Robinson Meyer:
Yes. It could just quietly tap its half a billion barrel strategic petroleum reserve, which encompasses both refined products and crude, we guess, right? Because it has to, because otherwise, how can you explain the fact that refinery activity has gone down?
Rory Johnston:
Yep.
Robinson Meyer:
And it just quietly started doing this, and then it continued to do it for the past 107 days, 110 days. Is that the right lesson to draw from this?
Rory Johnston:
Yes. Okay. And I think there’s a couple things, right? Everything mechanically is exactly how it went down. One big question. So we’ve talked about how. And we’ll talk about in a second what it means. We haven’t really talked about why yet. And I think this is another massive question. Because when we talked months ago, and you would ask, did we know China had all this oil? The answer is generally yes. We didn’t know the exact composition. We didn’t know exactly where it was. We didn’t know the breakdown or whatever. But for instance, we knew that China had over a billion barrels of visible crude inventories?
Robinson Meyer:
Well, I was going to ask this because basically one of the plot lines in the oil market over the past like two years has been that China, but basically there was some quantum of oil on the global market that was clearly being purchased in China that was not in the Chinese public data that sure looked like a strategic petroleum ramp up, right, that they were stockpiling oil. And you could see this in like the global supply and demand data, it actually kind of kept global oil prices a little elevated. It was good for producers, so to speak. But there were two assumptions here. I mean, I think the two assumptions were like, either one, they are building up fuel so that they have enough domestic fuel reserves so that they could invade Taiwan. Number two, that if they did invade Taiwan or if there was some crisis over Taiwan in the future, number two would be the less bellicose assumption or the less hawkish assumption. If China, there was some crisis over Taiwan status with the United States and the U.S. navy basically cut China off from seaborne fuel imports, then China was stockpiling these liquid fuels so that if that eventuality were to occur, it would have some strategic options and would be able to sustain its economy for some period of time with its domestic reserves. We knew that there was this buildup. Did we know the buildup was this big?
Rory Johnston:
No, not really. So we knew that there was a buildup in crude. We suspected there was a buildup in products. And back in 2023, I wrote a piece called “Chinese Oil Demand Doubts.” And in 2023, coming out of COVID Zero in the prior year in 2022, China posted the strongest year on year demand growth of any country in the oil market’s history. I believe it was about 1.7 million barrels a day year on year growth in Chinese demand, again, from a weak base. But that was 2022 was the first annual average demand contraction on record in China, basically in 30-plus years, modern China. And the following year was the largest growth ever. At the time, the rest of the Chinese economy didn’t look that hot. I mean, the same way that we’re tracking mobility now, like it just didn’t seem that good coming out of COVID Zero at the beginning. So not good enough to post all time high demand. But what I said at the time was when we were talking about how we create, how we estimate apparent demand, a big assumption there is that net-net, there is no material kind of bias in terms of stock building or stock drawing. That net-net, because we can’t see them, those net out. But given that we can’t see it, strategic stock building of gasoline, diesel, jet fuel would show up in these calculations as demand.
Rory Johnston:
Now, in 2023, I wrote exactly what you said, which is the assumption here is, one, China loves stockpiling raw commodities, period, end of sentence. Prior to oil, I covered a lot of metals markets. And you have the Strategic Metals Bureau in China that basically, you know, the State Metals Bureau, they do the same thing. They will just go in and swing copper or zinc or nickel supply by like multiple percentage points in the global market. This is the first time we’ve seen that level of swing in oil. And I think that’s a big conclusion that we can take from this. But yeah, so that basically the assumption was that it would be some, you know, either that kind of propensity towards stock building, and trying to secure up and shore up domestic supplies or explicitly as a kind of build up hedge for an invasion of Taiwan and the more hawkish interpretation. And at that time as well, it’s important to remember that that was when we saw Beijing increasingly saber rattling towards Taiwan. We saw, you know, them buzzing Taiwanese airspace. We saw, you know, Chinese naval drills off the coast of Taiwan. There was a lot of people talking about like, is this the moment? Is it actually going to happen? And I mean, there was even I think there was an Economist article at the time talking about how China was stockpiling all this stuff. What are they doing with it?
Robinson Meyer:
Around when Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan. Yes, it was. And there was a sense that, you know, if the U.S. mishandled this moment, that the two countries were as close to war over Taiwan status as they’ve been in a long time.
Rory Johnston:
Yeah, exactly. So I think that that was the initial thought. Now, why are they doing it now? Because obviously they’re not harassing Taiwan at the moment. The world has much bigger problems. So I think that with the Strait of Hormuz closed, the assumption was that, Okay, I thought that Beijing would not help. I thought that particularly coming out of that fairly, you know, cold, let’s call it, visit between the Trump administration and China a couple months ago, it did not seem especially successful. It did not seem like Beijing was going to help actively resolve what was going on in the Strait of Hormuz. So we kind of thought that they were not going to do this because doing this helps the Trump administration. It released massive pressure on the Trump administration.
Robinson Meyer:
Basically, right. What it means is that China absorbed with its strategic stock. In some ways, it’s the biggest what it means of all. China absorbed with its strategic stockpiles the primary hit to the global economy caused by Trump’s war of choice on Iran.
Rory Johnston:
Correct. And if we go back a couple of minutes ago to where we’re talking about the reason they built this up in the first place, because they are paranoid about energy security. So the question is, why would they single handedly take the bullet for all of Asia, Europe, everywhere else in the world?
Rory Johnston:
While diminishing and eroding that energy security blanket that they had so dutifully built up over years.
Rory Johnston:
It doesn’t make a lot of sense. So I think there’s two explanations that I’m working with. There’s three explanations. There’s the completely, you know, innocuous, like kind of like business as usual. So let’s go for that one first. Let’s assume that everything we’ve talked about, I’m wrong on the specifics and that you actually did have that much potential flexibility in the Chinese petrochemical space, that there were, you know, every one of those things I mentioned as potential offsets did happen and were about double as large as like, as I kind of bank them to be. Maybe, maybe. But I think the more likely is one of these more active choices I’ll mention. Now, the one is like, kind of, call it kind of like Beijing altruism. And then there’s like a very hawkish one. So the Beijing altruism one is.
Rory Johnston:
Okay, we know that Beijing is looking to diversify away from the United States, to pivot away from the U.S.-China relationship, to try and buttress economic trade linkages with everywhere else. The two other areas that are most obvious, East Asia and Europe, but the two areas that are going to hit hardest by the Hormuz shock. So in one telling, there’s an argument that China, it was not in Beijing’s interests to let, all the rest of the global economy falter so acutely at a moment when, as we’ve discussed, North America was going to be the most secure region given, shale production, given Canadian oil sands, given all this stuff. We were going to feel prices, but we were not going to feel the shortages in the same way. So again, the altruistic argument is that Beijing looks around the world and says.
Rory Johnston:
Trump has abandoned you. You know, Big Brother Beijing is here to help. So we’re going to backstop it all. The challenge with this argument is going back to they haven’t said anything about it. So you would, again, if they were doing this, if they were trying to make a point of offsetting, you know, the consequences of reckless American, you know, adventurism in the strait, they’d probably say something pretty sassily at that. But they didn’t. So then let’s move to the kind of more like, I’ll put my tinfoil hat on for a second And this is like the hawkish, like more concerning one, which is I mentioned this trip that the Trump administration took to Beijing. All external signs, all reporting indicate that it was not a particularly successful trip. Nothing blockbuster. Maybe it was like, you know, smiles and like waves, you know, waves at the crowd, but nothing, no trade breakthroughs, no breakthroughs on, you know, Beijing sending the Navy in to help reopen Hormuz. But maybe on the sidelines, they agreed to something else. They agreed to some kind of arrangement where Beijing stepped in to help the Trump administration with its gargantuan oil reserves. And again, we know that they theoretically have in stock, but this is the way we knew they were going to work or not. We knew that they had a lot of oil and they weren’t, releasing it immediately.
Rory Johnston:
So why would they do that? Why would Beijing help America in this case? And then we go back to kind of our interpretations of like the Donroe Doctrine, which is the idea that Trump was looking to withdraw from global kind of hegemonic, you know, oversight. And it was going to seed the world into these basically tranches controlled by regional powers that the United States had the Americas, Russia had Eurasia and Europe, and China had all of Asia. So what else was happening during this time? Well, there was a lot of military equipment destroyed in the Middle East during this period by Iranian attacks. And what we saw was that the U.S. military was pulling out a lot of heavy military kit that has historically resided in Asia to, say, buttress Taiwanese defenses. And they’re pulling them back over to the Middle East. I think the most concerning interpretation is that they basically trade Hormuz for, you know, Asian oversight and kind of attempted influence. I think that’s a very concerning potential.
Robinson Meyer:
Wouldn’t we see more signs of that publicly other than this kind of quiet, unheralded strategic petroleum release? Like, wouldn’t China be in this moment kind of notifying the other governments in Asia that they were now under its hegemonic authority as opposed to the United States?
Rory Johnston:
Out of the three options I discussed, the one where you would be least likely to talk about it publicly, I think, is this more clandestine. Because, again, the crisis is still ongoing. We still don’t know how long Beijing is going to keep this up. And I think this is this question of like, again, I don’t think any of these perfectly fit, which is why I think it remains a mystery as to why China did this. I’m mostly in kind of camp, you know, two or three that this it’s either trying to save the regional market or it’s something more nefarious. Because, again, I think that all the other explanations just don’t account for the scale and pace of the change we saw. It feels more discretionary policy than it feels like a natural market reaction.
Robinson Meyer:
Do we know how long they could have done this? Because crucially, as part of this dynamic, you know, if China was drawing down unseen strategic product reserves, Those reserves physically exist somewhere on the earth. They cannot be drawn down forever. And although we experience their being brought onto the global market as this kind of lack of price action, that has a duration. So, like, do we know how long they could have done this? Because looking at other global petroleum reserves, indeed, what seems to have driven part of the Trump administration’s decision making is that everyone’s stockpiles were getting drawn down, including like visible commercial, public data, non-strategic, just corporate stockpiles were like at very low levels. Everyone was kind of about to hit the bottom of their tank. If that had happened, maybe oil would have gone haywire globally or in certain regions. Was China like also close and we don’t know?
Rory Johnston:
It could have been, I think. And just to kind of reflect on the specific comment you’re talking about. So at the G7 and all of these speeches as Trump was kind of like.
Rory Johnston:
You know, championing this MOU, he’s like, well, there would have been bedlam. You don’t understand. Like we were four weeks away from hitting like tank bottoms. That would have been really bad. So one in the current system, yeah, four more weeks would have brought us even lower on commercial stocks. The U.S. SPR could have gone for 40 more weeks at that current pace. Like, I mean, this reference to reserves, I think a lot of people were thinking strategic. Those could have kept going. What was absolutely going to happen had this gone, as this continues to go longer, is we continue to draw down commercial stocks, you know, by the fastest pace on record. And we started this at very, very high levels. And now we are at very, very low levels and we’re still drawing at record pace. So yeah, I think the kind, the charitable interpretation is that the Trump administration actually has decent advisors in the space. And they were like, enough’s enough. Don’t pay attention to the price. We’re literally about to run out of oil. Maybe the other, I know going into the kind of tinfoil hatty thing here, and again, it’s the best we have, is like maybe Beijing gave him a bit of a timer on how long they would do this. I was surprised. I wasn’t surprised that this is how we got to an MOU. This is basically the MOU I thought he would sign. But this is the MOU I thought he would sign with crude at $150, not with crude at 80. It felt much more forced. He felt like he was under much more duress than markets were putting him in, much more pressure than they were putting on him. So there has to be something else that drove him because over the last two and a half weeks.
Rory Johnston:
The pace of the abrupt change in the way he was talking about it was like palpable. Like there was a very, very stark shift. It went from we’re fine, we’re fine, don’t worry, just trust us, to if we didn’t stop this, there would have been economic cataclysm. That’s a pretty, you know, wild swing in the span of like two weeks. It’s hard to make sense of any of the principal’s behavior in this crisis because, again, he was talking, the tone was like it was $150 crude. But we were we were sub 90 at that stage.
Robinson Meyer:
Right. I mean, what’s hard here is that the decision to go to war hasn’t made sense. The decision to end the war hasn’t made sense. We’re ending a dumb war of choice, basically on Iran’s terms. I mean, the whole thing is with none of the main issues that allegedly began the war resolved. In fact, all of them, you know, kick to this 60-day technical negotiation, technical, quote unquote. But let me ask an interpretive question here, which is like, isn’t there a non-nefarious, non-altruistic answer here for this kind of behavior, which is that we know the Chinese economy is doing fine. It’s not doing great. It’s consumer sentiment is pretty weak. Many households are still basically climbing their way out of having to write down their real estate investments from a few years ago. And we know that Chinese policymakers at this point have internalized that the problems with their economy are around this question of consumer demand versus investment. And isn’t it possible that Chinese policymakers just saw this massive energy supply shock coming down the turnpike and said, Our economy is not strong enough to deal with this. We know that they value energy security. They also value economic stability. And we don’t know, but it does seem like maybe they’ve shifted.
Robinson Meyer:
They feel like they can cut some kind of deal with the Trump administration. They like the way the Trump administration is referring to them as a peer. It does seem like their strategy on Taiwan has shifted a little bit from extremely bellicose to continue salami slicing Taiwan status and get some concessions out of the Trump administration about what the U.S. would do. Like, which to be clear, Donald Trump has partially already given them by referring to Taiwan status in ways that I think previous American presidents haven’t. Isn’t it possible that they just said, we simply don’t want this economic bomb to hit our economy and we’re going to do what we can to preserve our own economic stability. We don’t really care about what this signaled the sense of the rest of the world. We care about our consumers and preserving the strength of our economy. The feeling internally is that we’re not going to, there’s probably not going to be a war, inshallah, in the next year. And so we can just twist the knobs on this thing and prevent our own country from, you know, getting fed into the economic chipper, so to speak.
Rory Johnston:
Potentially. But let me problematize that in a couple of different ways. Because I think, while that could have been true when prices were skyrocketing through March and April, It certainly didn’t feel true as prices were collapsing into May and June. And during that period, Chinese imports continued to fall deeper at the period when it wasn’t happening. And I also think that you had this moment again of if that was the case. So here’s something that’s interesting. So the import collapse that I mentioned and the refining run collapse that I mentioned was... China seems to be holding refining runs higher than they would otherwise economically be otherwise, because if refining runs were deeply negative because of this policy change, why are Chinese imports not down 80 percent? Why aren’t they down more? Like, there’s also this question of, like, something’s telling these refiners to keep operating at some level because they have to keep going, maybe because they can’t draw down that entire pace of products on the other side. And again, we come back to one of pace of if that was the case, I think we would have seen more signs that you saw a kind of a heavy top down change because you would have seen more behavior change in that case. I think you would have seen way less, you know, transit. You’ve seen that China is very capable of locking down the economy.
Robinson Meyer:
Is China’s control over its tools of economic policy making like that fine tuned? Because I think like during COVID, right, there’s one story where it’s like we know China can shut down. You know, the country in COVID, we saw it. But the other story of COVID is that China basically has this market economy that operates on through this combination of provincial competition and top-down signals. And the top-down signals tend to get interpreted in this like very absolute way. So it’s like, we know that the economic policymakers can twist from two to 11, but they can’t really, they don’t like always know where seven is. I guess I’m trying to extend some faith here but like is it possible that they just like meant to twist to 7 and it got stuck in 11 and the signal is like damn the torpedoes full speed ahead, and they just start holding it there?
Rory Johnston:
Maybe. And I should say, this is a mystery to me. So I’m very open to other interpretations. I think, though, if that was the case, I think we would have seen buying return faster. I think that we’ve seen China building stocks at prices higher than they are right now. And they’re not even going back to pre-war norms of runways. We’ve also seen very, very early signs that Chinese import buying is picking up now that we’re starting to see more ships going through Hormuz. Now particularly seeing more Iranian ships going through Hormuz, which again speaks to a level of kind of waiting for the moment, which feels more, fine-tuned and discretionary than like a big kind of heavy mallet of, you know, that it’s stuck at 11.
Rory Johnston:
One thing I think we should talk about is what it means for the future.
Rory Johnston:
Because there are pretty massive consequences inherent in what we’re talking about. Bears the fact that, one, likely the implications that Chinese oil demand was weaker going into this than we had appreciated. So that means the glut surplus supply going into this was larger than we had appreciated. That’s point one. Point two is that we now see that China can swing massively and in rapid fashion, in the case of a massive spike. So it has the capacity and much more apparent willingness and execution ability than the West to stave off crises of fossil fuel prices. if, say, this happens again or it doesn’t end or whatever. And I think in anyone’s view of the oil market, part of your distribution is like a fat tail of like a $150, $200 oil price spike. And if all of a sudden that’s been like tamped down, That changes the kind of, you know, average of that distribution pretty notably.
Robinson Meyer:
We have this concept in oil of swing producers, right? The reason that OPEC Plus and Saudi and the UAE to a lesser extent can shift the global price of oil is because they have these very swingy production apparatuses, right? Very swingy reserves where they can rapidly scale up or rapidly scale down the amount of oil they’re sending into global markets. And because they have such power over the margin, they have a lot of control over the global price of oil. One thing we see in mineral markets, though, is that swing consumption really matters, is that China for the past 20 years has been able to set global commodity prices by the fact that it’s buying a lot or not buying a lot of a mineral. Do we need to start thinking in the global oil market in terms of China has an ability to set oil demand at the margin, perhaps already has been setting oil demand at the margin and therefore has a degree of market power that is? I don’t know, maybe isn’t equivalent to Saudi or the Permian, if we ever wanted to use the Permian in that way, but is like a very potent force in global economic policymaking.
Rory Johnston:
I’d go even further than that. I would say in terms of like the type of swing we’re talking about, we’re talking like even like five million barrels a day. That’s the collective cut of OPEC plus that it was unwinding over the course of the past couple of years. We’re talking not just Saudi, we’re talking like it can have the same swing demand impulse as all of OPEC together, which is like staggering and certainly more than has been demonstrated the capacity of the Western nations. So then we start talking about, yes, the state mails bureau was doing this with various commodities before there. It seems like they’re now doing that with oil as well. I am sure you guys talk all the time on this podcast about how China has worked to dominate critical minerals, you know, energy transition industries, et cetera, et cetera. In some ways, you know, people were like, well, at least they don’t control the fossil fuel sector. And I was like, well, maybe they actually do have a lot more influence in this sector than we had appreciated. And again, even comparing to the Permian or whatever, what makes OPEC so powerful is that it’s not necessarily a market driven thing. It’s discretionary. It’s a policy choice.
Rory Johnston:
Trump, as we have clearly seen, cannot make the Permian drill baby drill. Only economics and market incentives are going to do that. This, again, as far as we can see, the Occam’s razor is that this was a policy choice, to decrease import demand rather than a purely market one. And I think that, again, is like a very, very powerful thing if taken to its like logical extreme.
Robinson Meyer:
Is this the most important thing we learned in the Iran war?
Rory Johnston:
Yes, by far. I think that I think there’s other things like, for instance, I think that we’ve proven that the Trump administration and Trump himself can have a call it a soft manipulative capacity with jawboning, with spiking volatility and pushing people out of the market. China alone wouldn’t have stopped, I don’t think, the melt up that we saw through or rested the melt up we saw through March and April. But I don’t think the jawboning alone would have worked to do that without the slack that China injected. I think together it proved to be an extraordinarily potent combination. And then all of a sudden, just to tack this on to the end, we also have the fact that the IEA is now forecasting that once this thing ends, we’re going back to the world of mega glut. So maybe our historical references for how the market interprets low stocks or low inventories is also different in this moment because of that upcoming glut.
Robinson Meyer:
If Chinese, let’s say, real demand, I don’t know what the terms to use here are, but let’s say that real Chinese demand was even lower over the past few years than we thought it was because China was building up these massive strategic stockpiles. Does that mean that the real peak of liquid fuel consumption in the global economy has already happened?
Rory Johnston:
I don’t know if it’s already happened because I think that China is not the only source of demand growth we’ve seen over the past couple of years. It’s obviously a massive piece of that. But you’ve actually seen through COVID, Chinese demand has been really flattish since this period. So maybe Chinese liquid demand has peaked earlier, but I don’t know if yet. I think it might be too hard to say overall demand has peaked yet. But I do think, you know, absolutely, this is proof that you have a lot more swing in Chinese demand. And I would differentiate by demand is consumption plus strategic stock building. But to your point, I think consumption is almost certainly lower than we had thought going into this. So overall, we now know that Chinese consumption was likely lower and China’s swing demand is much higher. Or the capacity for swing demand is much higher than we would have appreciated.
Robinson Meyer:
It’s so interesting because it basically means that under a flat demand signal, consumption has risen and fallen. And we don’t know exactly when it happened, but we know it happened under there, which would be very good news to bring it back to the topic of shift key for the climate. The issue is if the other big lesson of this crisis for China, and by the way, for India, for the rest of Asia, is that it’s really good to be able to switch fuels in your petrochemical sector and you want to build out a lot of coal to chemical plants, that would be very, very bad for the climate because while you can change whether you make chemicals from oil or natural gas or coal and it doesn’t really matter for the end product, it actually does matter a lot for the climate whether you’re making chemicals with oil or gas or coal. And so anyway, lots to think about. Rory Johnson, it’s so great to have you here. This was a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us as always. I learned so much.
Rory Johnston:
Thanks for having me, Rob.
Robinson Meyer:
And that will do it for us today. Thank you so much for sticking around till the end. Before we get to the credits, I just want to say, I don’t know if you subscribe to Heatmap Daily. It’s Heatmap’s newsletter. It goes out every afternoon or evening, Eastern U.S. time. But lately, we’ve been having some fun with it. I have been writing that newsletter every day. And it really is me, by the way. I’ve added a lot of writing to my weekly workload. And in that newsletter, I share an observation or a piece of analysis or some recent reporting that I’ve been thinking about. It’s like an email from me to you every evening. I really enjoy writing it. It’s frankly been a blast and it’s kind of the peer to Heatmap’s morning newsletter, Heatmap AM, which is written by my colleague Alexander Kaufman. So what I want you to do is if you don’t subscribe to Heatmap Daily, but you do listen to this show, and in particular, if you’ve listened to this show all the way to the end, you should go subscribe to Heatmap Daily. Like I am writing this thing for people like you and I would like you to subscribe to this newsletter. We will stick the link in the show notes. You can also find it at heatmap.news. But please, please do come and subscribe. It’s really fun. It’s free, by the way. You don’t have to be a Heatmap paid subscriber to read the newsletter. But I think you’ll enjoy it. I encourage you. In fact, I ask you to subscribe.
Robinson Meyer:
We will be back next week. I’m relatively sure with a new episode of Shift Key. We might, might have something on Friday, but I think it’s going to be next week. Until then, Shift Key is a production of Heatmap News. Our editors are Jillian Goodman and Nico Lauricella. Multimedia editing and audio engineering is by Jacob Lambert and by Nick Woodbury. Our music is by Adam Kromelow. Thanks so much for listening, we will see you next week.
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Current conditions: Temperatures in Sicily and southern Italy are approaching 100 degrees Fahrenheit as a heat dome settles over the north-central Mediterranean • After pounding Okinawa and injuring two people on Japan’s remote southern islands, Typhoon Saudel is barreling west toward China • A geomagnetic storm known as a coronal hole could create a visible aurora from New York to Idaho, causing minor disruptions to technological devices such as GPS.

It’s like something out of an apocalyptic disaster film. From a camera situated on a cliffside overlooking the Rasuwagadhi border checkpoint in a valley between Nepal and Tibet, you watch as several — then dozens — of people start running away from the building. Birds fly across the screen in the same direction. Finally, after a few seconds, you see what they’re trying to escape: A giant wall of gray, muddy water crashing into the roughly six-story building like an ocean wave against a sand castle. In other videos, cars, trees, and homes disappear under the roar of a river of mud and rocks. Goliath boulders roll like basketballs. Men run for their lives. An avalanche on the Chinese side of the border “triggered a wall of water with no warning,” wrote The Kathmandu Post, an English-language daily in the Nepali capital, declaring this “one of Nepal’s deadliest disasters in decades.” By Thursday morning, the death toll counted at least 332, with hundreds more people still missing. Nepal’s disaster authority told the Indian broadcaster NDTV that a “chunk of snow and rock broke off near a glacier zone” on the border and either “fell into a glacial lake or blocked the river channel” resulting in a surge that swelled into a wave of glacial ice, meltwater, and debris. While initial reports suggested the avalanche started with an earthquake, a U.S. Geological Survey analysis found that the avalanche itself set off a magnitude 5.2 landslide.
Last month the Federal Communications Commission banned the use of new types of foreign-made inverters, the equipment needed to patch solar panels and batteries onto the grid, citing the need to protect the U.S. artificial intelligence buildout from Chinese sabotage. Now the White House is stepping in to block foreign imports of yet more types of grid equipment. In an executive order Wednesday, President Donald Trump said that “continued United States reliance on foreign sources of bulk-power system electric equipment with these potential national security vulnerabilities also creates a supply chain vulnerability that could eliminate the supply of these products in the United States as a result of disruptions in international trade.” In particular, the order will affect transformers, which are facing a years-long backlog as manufacturers struggle to keep up with demand from both the data center buildout and repairs to the grid after extreme weather mangles power equipment. The Biden administration had sought to increase the energy efficiency standards for transformers, paralyzing manufacturers who opposed the regulation and could not make investments into new assembly lines to meet surging demand until the fate of the rule was resolved. The Biden-era Department of Energy ultimately withdrew its proposal. While the Trump administration policy now will further protect those domestic factories, the import restrictions could, in the meantime, make obtaining the equipment primarily made overseas more difficult.
The Trump administration is set to speed up permitting reviews for oil and gas drilling in the Arctic. On Wednesday, Public Domain broke news that the Department of the Interior is planning to publish a categorical exclusion to the National Environmental Policy Act “that would make it easier for the oil and gas industry to conduct seismic surveys, obtain rights of way, and drill new exploration wells” in the National Petroleum Reserve in Alaska, a nearly 36,000-square-mile area on the continent’s northern Arctic Ocean coast.
The proposal, which the Interior Department confirmed, comes as a particularly devastating blow to the Native Village of Nuiqsut, which had brokered a deal with the Biden administration to create a nearly million-acre caribou reserve to foster a herd on which the indigenous residents have long depended. But former Nuiqsut Mayor Rosemary Ahtuangaruak told the public-lands-focused investigative site that new drilling activity around the village has already changed the herd’s migration patterns. “All of the contractual agreements that were supposed to guide how development is going to occur have been ripped out of the books,” she said. “We feel that it doesn’t matter that we have a unique DNA, a small community of 500 people, that are just being totally disregarded and sacrificed for the greed of development.”
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Back in May, I told you about Otovo, the new startup from the former chief executive of defunct rooftop solar giant Sunnova. Instead of installing solar panels, the new company repairs rooftop photovoltaic units, in addition to batteries and generators — a sort of AAA for home energy equipment. Otovo started in Norway, targeting millions of homeowners across Europe with solar panels from installers that went out of business and left customers without maintenance service. The company has mounted a global expansion into the United States by buying smaller solar companies and maintenance providers. On Thursday, Otovo plans to announce two deals to make its latest acquisitions: Oahu-based PV Hawaii and Mr. Elektro in Norway and Sweden. The combined value of the deals — which are being reported first in this newsletter — is about $4.6 million. “PV Hawaii and Mr. Elektro bring licensed, experienced local teams that strengthen how we serve customers, and they extend our platform into Hawaii for the first time while deepening our reach across Norway and Sweden,” Otovo CEO John Berger told me in a statement.

You read that right. Unless you (like, uh, some people…) are familiar with late 20th century Melanesian geopolitics, you may not know the story of Bougainville. The island province off Papua New Guinea long had a troubled history. Ethnically, its people are related to those of the Solomon Islands, but German colonial borders hemmed the mineral-rich isle into the territory controlled by Port Moresby. In the 1970s, Anglo-Australian mining giant Rio Tinto built the Panguna mine in the center of the island. Pollution and labor violations plagued the open-pit copper and gold mine, ultimately fueling a separatist rebellion. A conflict, known as the Bougainvillean Civil War, erupted in 1988 and lasted for 10 years, only ending with a peace accord that allowed for a referendum on independence. In 2019, the autonomous province voted nearly unanimously in favor of breaking away from Papua New Guinea. The non-binding vote has yet to be ratified by the parliament in Port Moresby. But the leaders of Bougainville expect to become the world’s newest country by 2030.
To fund its sovereignty, the island wants to reopen Panguna. Last November, Ishmael Toroama, the president of Bougainville, signed a memorandum of understanding with Lloyds Metals and Energy. The Indian iron-ore miner won the deal “despite warnings from Bougainville’s majority state-owned mining company, Bougainville Copper, that Lloyds lacked the technical and financial capacity of rival bidders,” the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project reported in a major new investigation. Just a month earlier, Toroama confirmed to OCCRP, “he accepted an offer from Lloyds’ managing director Balasubramanian Prabhakaran to arrange for his wife to travel to India and have a life-saving kidney operation at no cost to the president.” Toroama told OCCRP that the gift did not weigh on his decision to select the Mumbai-based Lloyds for the project.
The first step in the Department of Energy’s effort to propel new reactor technologies to market was a pair of pilot programs to speed up development of projects from both power and fuel producers. The next step is the “nuclear launch pad” initiative at the Idaho National Laboratory’s National Reactor Innovation Center. This week, the agency announced the first 12 companies to participate in the new program, which bills itself as providing “flexible technical and regulatory frameworks designed to fast-track paths from concept to deployment.” The list includes microreactor developers Antares Nuclear, Atlas Atomics, Oklo, Valar Atomics, Scaled Atomics, and two projects from Deployable Energy; fuel makers Forge Atomics, Hexium, Lightbridge Corporation, Raven-Flint Nuclear, and Sublime Nuclear; and medical isotope startup Nusano. “These selections show a strong and growing interest from developers ready to move their technologies forward,” Brad Tomer, the director of the National Reactor Innovation Center, said in a statement. Meanwhile, another startup spinning out from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology announced a big initial funding round. Apollo Atomics — which aims to build next-generation pressurized water reactors, the type of reactor that makes up the bulk of the global fleet — announced a $31 million seed financing round, NucNet reported.
Rob talks with Amanda Levin, head of climate science and policy at the Natural Resources Defense Council, about why we shouldn’t give up on renewable subsidies just yet.
Two years ago, Donald Trump made an outlandish campaign promise: He would cut Americans’ power bills in half.
It was a ridiculous, impossible pledge — but even so, the affordability problem didn’t need to get this bad. A new report, out this week from the Natural Resources Defense Council, looks at the economic, environmental, and public health costs of Trump’s regulatory and legislative clean energy policies, including his rollback of the wind and solar tax credits.
The report’s author, Amanda Levin, joins Rob on this episode of Shift Key. Levin is a Director of Policy Analysis at the NRDC’s Science Office. They discuss why Trump’s repeal will have long-term effects, the underrated public health impacts of the rollback, and why Levin believes the credits should be restored.
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News.
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Here is an excerpt from their conversation:
Robinson Meyer: So you’ve said that we should have tax credits that buy down the cost of technologies while we’re installing them. We had Lily Bermel on Shift Key a few weeks ago with her report, and she looked at a different set of questions here, and I think it’s worth kind of talking about them in a second. But her view of the data — which I would say I’ve also heard now from some solar developers, who obviously represent the interests of their industry — but her view of the data was like, look, there’s a lot of solar and batteries that are about to get built as developers rush to hit a deadline, rush to hit the deadline in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. Her view is, if you look at this from an emissions perspective, you don’t need wind and solar tax credits. So really ,money would be better spent elsewhere. It would be better spent buying down the cost of clean firm technologies like advanced geothermal, like fusion, perhaps, that can run 24/7 and start to push gas out of the system.
You’ve written an op-ed for Heatmap kind of taking issue with some of those claims, and I want to actually lean into that disagreement. Why should the U.S. restore wind and solar tax credits? Because I would say we’ve learned one thing, actually, in the past month since Lily was on the show. It is that deficit concerns are going to be even more pressing for lawmakers, it seems like, in 2029, even in 2027, than they were in 2024 or 2022, because interest rates are going to be high. They seem to be getting higher. Among the crises that Democrats will have promised to solve is this deficit crisis that is of Trump’s own creation. And so why should a scarce dollar go to wind and solar tax credits?
Amanda Levin: I think it’s important to remember that renewables have a lot of benefits, and not all of them are reflected in the decisions that a utility might make on behalf of its customers. Renewables both lower pollution, which can help reduce the costs and the burden that we have both from public health pollution as well as from climate pollution. They also can enhance energy security and increase economic opportunities.
But I think importantly, it’s a recognition of, one, we need to build a lot of energy fast, and we want to build it clean, as well. And that is going to take quite a bit of money up front. Even if wind and solar are some of the cheapest, lowest cost options over the life of their investment, when looking at something more simplistic, like a levelized cost of energy, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have large upfront costs that need to then be recovered from someone. And in the structure of many of our states, that someone is going to be ratepayers. And often the way that we recover money through electricity bills and rates is not progressive. It’s pretty regressive. So I think the way that we see the kind of tax credits playing into this is it’s an essential part of ensuring that as we transition towards a cleaner system, it remains affordable for everyone by moving costs off of ratepayers, who are going to be much more regressively taxed, and putting them onto the federal government, when we know that we need to be spending more on clean energy to meet our growing load, and also just to invest in our grid that is, in many cases, reaching the end of its life for certain investments.
And so I think to that kind of question of what are we trying to solve here? Obviously, wind and solar, we still see that they are being built, and they make up the bulk of anything that’s going to be built in the next decade. But we’re definitely not building enough.
There was a paper that I was part of at the beginning of 2025 that found that in order to meet our climate commitments, we would need to quadruple the amount of wind, solar, and battery storage that was being added to the system compared to recent day records. The IRA got us basically halfway there. And if you look at where we are now with Trump, we’ve basically lost that halfway there. But what we know is, if we want to actually tackle our societal challenges — climate, health, everything — and affordability, we’re going to both need to build a lot of clean energy, but also we can’t put that on the backs of ratepayers. We need to explore other ways to mitigate the near-term affordability shock that will come from just having to invest in our system.
You can find a full transcript of the episode here.
Mentioned:
Amanda Levin’s new report: An Affordability Crisis of Trump’s Own Making
A ‘Glass Half Full’ Isn’t Enough to Fight Climate Change
Previously on Shift Key: The New Paper Arguing Biden’s Power Sector Emissions Cuts Are Largely Intact — Even Under Trump
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Robinson Meyer:
Hello, it’s Thursday, August 27, and two years ago when he was running for president, Donald Trump made a ludicrous promise. He said he would cut electricity bills in half, cut Americans’ energy costs in half. Now, obviously, that was never going to happen, but it has backfired on the president tremendously in the years since. Energy costs are up, and it’s driven his polling to all-time lows. Now, I was thinking about it because we recently passed a major anniversary of the Inflation Reduction Act. It was signed into law by President Biden in August 2022 and partially repealed, as you surely know, on July 4, 2025 by President Trump. We’re still getting a bead, I think, on just how bad that repeal was. Of course, the big Trump tax and spending bill, which was passed last year, carved out the solar and wind tax credits from the IRA, as well as consumer incentives for electric vehicles. That turned out to be enormously poorly timed, not only because we were about to enter a self-inflicted oil crisis, but because the country is in the middle of an explosion in electricity demand caused by data centers. There’s a new report out this week from the Natural Resources Defense Council that argues the Trump law will be even worse for the country than we thought last year, and it’s going to cut to this key energy affordability problem the president’s been dealing with. The report argues that Trump’s repeal will cost consumers $30 billion a year by 2035, and increase some household power bills by as much as 25%.
Robinson Meyer:
The report also ties into a very important argument that climate wonks are having right now. A few weeks ago on this show, we had the energy analyst, Lily Burmel. She argued that the glass, quote, remained half full on climate policy, that most of the Inflation Reduction Act’s emissions benefits, its emissions cuts, were going to survive the Trump repeal, or at least compared to a 2021 baseline. She said that policymakers shouldn’t focus, therefore, in future administrations on restoring the solar and wind tax credits, but adding new policy to areas of the energy system that need more help. This new report from the NRDC doesn’t look at the same exact set of questions. It starts the clock in 2025, not 2021. But its author recently argued in a piece on Heatmap that will stick in the show notes that we should restore the solar and wind tax credits and that glass half full, quote unquote, is the wrong outlook to take here. Our guest today is the author of that new report and the author of that heat map piece. The report’s called An Affordability Crisis of Trump’s Own Making. And the author is Amanda Levin. She’s director of policy analysis at the Natural Resources Defense Council’s science office, where she oversees the development of modeling, analyses, and materials for the organization’s advocacy on climate and clean energy priorities. On this show, we talk about what her new report found, what it means for the future of climate policy, as well as the importance of talking about conventional air pollution like particulate matter.
Robinson Meyer:
I’m Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News, and you are listening to Shift Key. Amanda Levin, welcome to Shift Key.
Amanda Levin:
Thank you for having me, Robinson.
Robinson Meyer:
So I just want to start, you came out with this new report this week that I think has Like, look, we all knew that the impacts of the Inflation Reduction Act’s repeal and the passage of the one big, beautiful bill was going to mean bad things. But I think your new report is able to put some numbers on just how bad it will be, especially since at this point, it’s been about a year since OBBBA was passed. And we have a little more clarity on what it’s going to mean for the power sector. And so just to start, can you walk us through what you found in this new report and what it might mean?
Amanda Levin:
Yes. So our new report is basically the fullest assessment yet of what the actions that this administration is taking to curtail clean energy and promote fossil fuels might mean for the country. Our analysis goes beyond just analyzing the effect of Trump’s regulatory rollbacks or the one big beautiful bill and adds on top the impact from many of the administration’s other actions to block progress. That includes things like levying tariffs, remanding offshore wind permits, and other attempts to block onshore wind through regulatory hurdles and permit obstacles.
Amanda Levin:
What our modeling shows is that the Trump administration’s policies, to stop renewable energy, promote fossil, is just going to mean higher costs for consumers, less new investment in the power grid, especially when we need it most, and a dramatic increase in deadly pollution. Just to put some numbers out there, what we find is that under Trump’s policies, as compared to a January 2025 snapshot, essentially what would have happened if the policies that were in place on January 19, 2025 were still in place today, is that we will spend $125 billion, more on electricity over the next decade, amounting to energy bills increasing by $230 a year by 2035.
Amanda Levin:
We’re going to lose $700 billion in new power sector investment, and with it, over half a million jobs in clean energy, and over 40% of all the new power capacity that was expected to be built before Trump took office. And without this new power, what it means is we’re just going to have to keep and run a lot of our older, aging, more expensive coal, gas, and oil plants more, leading to quite a lot of extra pollution. Our health modeling found that over the next decade, the extra pollution from these power plants could amount to 69,000 additional early deaths and over 85,000 more ER visits and hospital emissions. All told from a climate perspective, power sector emissions could be twice as high under Trump by 2035 as they were expected to be under the past administration’s policies.
Robinson Meyer:
And that’s starting from a 2025 baseline, basically. So that’s looking at everything that would have happened after Biden left office.
Amanda Levin:
Exactly. Our model really focused on 2025 to 2035, looking at three scenarios. What would have happened under that snapshot, January 2025 policies in place, but still seeing the same level of data center load growth and other macroeconomic trends. And then we leveled on top two different Trump scenarios. One, we call a limited impact case. That is really just the big marquee actions that Trump has taken. The rollback of different regulations from the Environmental Protection Agency and one big, beautiful bill. And then our full impact to really try to assess what do all the other smaller things that this administration is doing mean? Adds on top, those tariffs, those other permitting headwinds to get a bigger picture of what that might be happening and where we might be headed, given everything that the administration is throwing in the way of our clean energy transition.
Robinson Meyer:
Okay, so in a word, bad. You know, it’s bad. How is the model thinking through these regulatory actions? Because I think this has been one of the hardest parts of the Trump administration to wrap your mind around. There’s the wind and solar tax credits. Those have been excised from tax law under the big Trump tax and spending bill. I should say under the big Trump tax and spending law. There’s a deadline for them that’s coming up. And so a lot of developers are rushing to build projects ahead of the deadline now. But within the universe of things that we can model, It’s among the things that we’re better at modeling. But then you have all these regulatory actions that are slowing down various project pipelines anywhere from it’s a little more inconvenient to do a project than it used to be to it’s basically impossible to do. It seems like a wind project now. It’s basically impossible to move forward on. And there’s a lot of questions, too, about how long are those going to last? Are those going to stick around till 2028? How easy are they to reverse? So just like, how does the model countenance the universe of these regulatory policies and bureaucratic policies and kind of additional red tape that has been such a big part of this administration?
Amanda Levin:
Yes, that’s a really good question. Obviously, the administration is doing a lot of different things, and some of them are already being stopped by the courts. And then they attempt to find other workarounds to get to the same result, which is more expensive clean energy and less on the grid. For our approach here, we recognize that things are moving so quickly and changing pretty rapidly all the time, that what we wanted to do was have a range of scenarios. And I think that’s why we came to the idea of, we need to model two different cases. One that is much more limited in impact, that looks just at the things that we really can easily model. We know what the one big, beautiful bill text looks like. We know how to model those types of impacts. We know what the EPA standards look like and what they will look like when they’re repealed. And we know that the administration wants to repeal those standards. And then we chose a worst case, which is, let’s assume the tariffs stick, similar to the levels that the Trump administration has tried, even if it might be that there’s more minimum import prices.
Robinson Meyer:
Or something else. I didn’t mention this in the setup, but among the different policies here are that the Trump administration has placed tariffs and threatened to place them on various inputs to the electricity generation process, on various renewable inputs. And you kind of assume that they stick in one of these scenarios.
Amanda Levin:
Yes, we assume that they stick in the full impact case. And I’ll note that it’s not just solar, wind, and battery storage that gets affected by tariffs. It affects all power sector technologies, including also things like natural gas, which rely on minerals and metals that are affected. And then, for example, with the offshore and onshore wind, right? Our assumption for the onshore wind is essentially that that blockade that’s kind of caused today by the Department of Defense kind of permit freeze sticks. Makes you know, yes, it’s a worst case assumption, but I think.
Robinson Meyer:
In advance administration, the Department of Defense continues to not basically allow any wind farms to get built.
Amanda Levin:
And I’ll note that that only lasts through 2029. We do not make assumptions about what happens after that. Everything that the Trump administration would do that is more on the administrative level does end January 19th, 2029. But those are huge delays in just the ability for clean energy to make up lost time, especially on the onshore wind side where the production tax credits do play an important part in the economics of how much wind might be built. And they essentially miss that window if anything that’s not already under construction or an advanced development past that kind of DOD permit phase can’t be built until 2029.
Robinson Meyer:
Got it. What does the model think about data center demand? How do you model the role of data centers here? And when you talk about, for instance, greenhouse gas emissions being twice as high in 2035 as they would have been under a, let’s say, Harris administration scenario, do you include in that the behind the meter gas that seems like it’s getting built at quite large scale to service computing demand?
Amanda Levin:
Yeah, so I’ll just kind of start with the headline, which is data center growth is the same across all three classes and cases. What we’re essentially trying to understand is not how do data centers change the picture, but how do the policies in place change the outcomes given that we are now in a high load growth scenario. In our model, we’re using the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab data center forecasts, which is about a 10% year-over-year compound annual growth rate between now and 2035. By 2035, data centers are about 15% of total power demand in all three of our cases. So all of our cases have to meet quite high levels of data center growth. I will note that we do not have some of the behind-the-meter gas included in the model. That’s something that is really hard to put into … And so instead, our modeling has to meet that growing demand through a combination of utility scale resources, whether that’s building new gas plants or building more solar storage or keeping existing coal, gas online and running more to meet that higher level of demand.
Robinson Meyer:
Where is most of the shortfall between these different model runs coming from? So when you call it snapshot 2025, but let’s call it Harris administration, since I think that’s.
Amanda Levin:
Yeah, it’s essentially continued policies.
Robinson Meyer:
Continued policies. The world, the American government is frozen in amber on January 19, 2025, and the world continues as it will. Where is most of the lost capacity coming from in the power grid?
Amanda Levin:
So the largest kind of total amount of capacity that we lose is from solar, which was just projected to be the dominant source of new power being added to the grid under that kind of, continued policies stuck in amber scenario. The largest kind of percent decline is going to come from wind, which is in particular, like really hard hurt by the Trump administration, which not only, cut the tax credits, but also just given other permitting headlocks makes it a lot harder for the wind sector to just see any growth at all over the next 10 years under the Trump administration.
Robinson Meyer:
What most surprised you in the report?
Amanda Levin:
There are two things that really surprised me. The first is just how little investment overall we see in these Trump cases. It’s not just that we’re losing hundreds of gigawatts of renewables, wind, solar, battery storage. I expected that. I think what was crazy is we don’t really see any new investment in natural gas beyond what was going to happen in the continued policies. And that is in part a function of the 10-year window of which there are some near-term supply constraints that make it really hard for natural gas to be built above the kind of levels that were already put into the continued policy scenario. And that instead of kind of seeing different investment, the action really is we lose all this clean and instead we just have to stick with the old stuff. There isn’t really new investment at all. I think the other thing that I found in a more positive way, shocking, was despite everything that the Trump administration is doing.
Amanda Levin:
We still see massive growth of wind, solar and battery storage compared to where we are today. Just to put that into perspective, even in that full impact case, which levels on top some of these permitting constraints, tariffs, we still go from about 25% renewable to 46% renewable electricity mix by 2035. We would be at closer to 65% if we were, you know, with the kind of continued policy scenario, but there’s still a lot of progress that gets made, even when we add on top all these other things that the administration is doing.
Robinson Meyer:
Talk a little bit more about the gas relationship, because among the policies that the Biden administration was trying to implement at the end of 2024 were EPA regulations on gas. I don’t believe they were ever finalized. Now it’s ancient history. But it would have changed the investability environment for gas. I mean, these rules would have more or less required some degree of carbon capture and storage on site with natural gas power plants, it would have been an incredibly litigated rule. It was being litigated at the time they lost the election. Does your model assume that those rules or something like those rules were in effect? And what is the difference then between a world where those rules were in effect through the 2020s and 2030s, and we got all this data center demand, and the world that we’re getting where those rules aren’t in effect and we’re getting all this data center demand anyway.
Amanda Levin:
Yeah, so I think that’s a really good question. And it’s important to clarify what happens with capacity versus generation. In our modeling, we do include the finalized EPA rules, which were both on existing coal and new gas. What never ended up getting finalized was a standard on existing gas. So it just covered those two pockets of the power sector. For the new gas standard, it was kind of separated into three different levels. For baseload gas plants, essentially gas plants running about 40% or more a year, they would need to have installed CCS, I think, by 2032 and beyond. For anything running below that, the standard was more based on efficient turbine design and heat rates. So they didn’t need to install CCS, but they just couldn’t run as a baseload facility. They served more for peaking and kind of load following. And I think that helps explain some of the weird gas pieces here, which is one, under the continued policy cases, you also have a really strong standard on existing coal that would have required coal plants to either co-fire with natural gas or install CCS if they wanted to run past 2032. In our model, there are some coal plants that install CCS, but essentially another 100 gigawatts of coal retires by 2032 compared to the Trump administration.
Amanda Levin:
What we see is the model does build some new gas in that scenario, not for generation. It has enough wind, solar to meet kind of growing energy demand. But what it wants is kind of those peaking load following resources that can help not run all the time, but just run in those kind of grid periods where they’re needed the most. And so in the Biden era or continued policy scenarios, yes, there’s new gas investment, but it’s gas investment that’s designed not to meet really our energy needs, but to meet our demand needs and that kind of capacity to keep our system reliable and resilient as we build out a lot of renewables and storage. In the Trump scenario, we don’t have those same kind of constraints on how much new gas can actually run. And so you get a similar level of capacity, but we’re running our existing coal, our existing gas, and our new gas a lot more, resulting in much more emissions, much more fossil generation, even if the kind of capacity picture is not as different as you might expect.
Robinson Meyer:
It is interesting because I think back during the Biden administration, rules, as you said, would have required that the most efficient gas plants run as baseload and you couldn’t run a peaker plant as a baseload plant, right? And I think at the time, a kind of savvy thing that one could have said was like, well, who’s going to run a peaker plant as a baseload plant anyway? That would be crazy. That would be completely uneconomical. Like, why would you ever do that? If you did that, the structure of electricity markets would look totally different than it does right now. But of course, then what happened is we got a massive secular shock to electricity demand in the form of data centers. And now people run peaker plants all out 24-7 all the time.
Amanda Levin:
Yeah, I have been involved in modeling not only of kind of this kind of current policy, but also I was part of some of the multi-model studies run by EPRI and John Bistline for both the IRA and the kind of EPA carbon pollution standards. And I think what I can see is as we add in those other shocks, the way that a model responds, given that we now have much higher demand load growth, some different costs, different supply chain constraints, does result in some differences in how the model has to meet these standards and just meet load more generally, given all of these other things that are happening in the energy sector today.
Robinson Meyer:
What is your interpretation of what this means for policy? If anything, I mean, I think it’s enough to say, look, The Trump regulatory and administrative policies are even worse than we thought. They are driving up your energy bills. I thought your intro made this great point that is like often forgotten, but should really be in every story about Trump’s energy policy, which is the man ran on cutting electricity bills in half. That was the campaign promise he made. It was a risible campaign promise at the time, but it was obviously he was not going to be able to do it, but he has not only, he’s completely failed. And I would add it’s blown up in his face. It’s in some ways a testament to like why you shouldn’t make campaign promises like that, because the whole politics of the grid have completely blown up in his face. But what is your interpretation of what this model means for policy? And what would you hope policymakers take away from what you found here?
Amanda Levin:
Yeah. So when I look at this, I think what I’m shocked by is just the number of crises that any next administration, next Congress will have to face. It’s not just going to be that we are off track from a climate perspective. We definitely will be. But we also are going to have to contend with a serious cost of living issue. Our analysis both kind of looked at what it might mean for retail rates, which in certain areas could be as much as 25% as high due to Trump’s policies by 2035, but also looked at the healthcare spending side of things as well, which, given the extra pollution, the extra illness will also be higher because of Trump’s agenda. And beyond that, the next administration is going to have to figure out how do we not only move forward, but double our attempts to get back to where we were supposed to be. And I think that is something that.
Amanda Levin:
Is really important for policymakers to keep in mind, which is we need solutions that can address essentially a multifaceted set of crises all at once. It will not be just one single piece of policy. We are going to need to look at things like tax credits that can help reduce the upfront cost and help keep costs for ratepayers lower as we build out and invest in an aging system that needs to grow in both pace and scale. We’re going to need things like permitting reform and new transmission because we do not have the system that we need to be able to have a reliable decarbonized clean grid of the future. And we’re also going to need to look at things like standards that will require utilities to put the best interests of their consumers and society at the forefront as they make long-term planned investments to meet growing load growth over the next few years. I think one thing I want policymakers to take away from this is we still have the ability to shift and to make progress. I think one silver lining from this is Trump tried to have a death blow to the clean energy industry, and it didn’t work. The economics are still there, but the market won’t get us where we need to go at the time and scale.
Amanda Levin:
That we need to get there unless we have policies that not only unlock new transmission, permitting, interconnection, but that also push more clean energy onto the grid to hit the levels of deployment that we need to have an affordable, clean system that avoids the worst of climate change.
Robinson Meyer:
Let’s lean in on one of those points. So you’ve said that we should... Have tax credits that buy down the cost of technologies while we’re installing them. We had Lily Bermel on Shift Key a few weeks ago with her report, and she looked at a different set of questions here. And it’s almost, I think it’s worth kind of talking about them in a second. But her view of the data, which I would say I’ve also heard now from some solar developers who obviously represent the interests of their industry, but her view of the data was like, look,
Robinson Meyer:
Look, there’s a lot of solar and batteries that are about to get built as developers rush to hit a deadline, rush to hit the deadline in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. Her view is if you look at this from an emissions perspective, you don’t need wind and solar tax credits. So really money would be better spent elsewhere. It would be better spent buying down the cost of clean firm technologies like advanced geothermal, like fusion perhaps, that can run 24-7 and start to push gas out of the system. You’ve written an op-ed for Heatmap kind of taking issue with some of those claims, and I want to actually lean into that disagreement. So why should the U.S. restore wind and solar tax credits? Because I would say we’ve learned one thing actually in the past month since Lily was on the show. It is that deficit concerns are going to be even more pressing for lawmakers, it seems like, in 2029. Even in 2027 than they were in 2024 or 2022, because interest rates are going to be high. They seem to be getting higher. Among the crises that Democrats will have promised to solve is this deficit crisis that is of Trump’s own creation. And so why should a scarce dollar go to wind and solar tax credits?
Amanda Levin:
I think it’s important to remember that renewables have a lot of benefits and not all of them are reflected in the decisions that a utility might make on behalf of its customers. Renewables both lower pollution which can help reduce the costs and the burden that we have both from public health pollution as well as from climate pollution. They also can enhance energy security and increase economic opportunities.
Amanda Levin:
But I think importantly, it’s a recognition of, one, we need to build a lot of energy fast. And we want to build it clean as well. And that is going to take quite a bit of money up front. Even if wind and solar are some of the cheapest, lowest cost options over the life of their investment, when looking at something more simplistic, like a levelized cost of energy, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have large upfront costs that need to then be recovered from someone. And in the structure of many of our states, that someone is going to be rate payers. And often the way that we recover money through electricity bills and rates is not progressive. It’s pretty regressive. So I think the way that we see the kind of tax credits playing into this is it’s an essential part of ensuring that as we transition towards a cleaner system, it remains affordable for everyone by moving costs, off of rate payers who are going to be much more regressively taxed and putting them onto the federal government when we know that we need to be spending more, on clean energy to meet our growing load and also just to invest in our grid that in many cases.
Amanda Levin:
Reaching the end of its life for certain investments. And so I think to that kind of question of what are we trying to solve here? Obviously, wind and solar, we still see that they are being built and they make up the bulk of anything that’s going to be built in the next decade, but we’re definitely not building enough. There was a paper that I was part of at the beginning of 2025 that found that in order to meet our climate commitments, we would need to quadruple the amount of wind, solar, and battery storage that was being added to the system compared to kind of like recent day records. The IRA got us basically halfway there. And if you look at where we are now with Trump, we’ve basically lost that halfway there. But what we know is if we want to actually tackle, our societal challenges, climate, health, everything, and affordability, we’re going to both need to build a lot of clean energy, but also we can’t put that on the backs of ratepayers. We need to explore other ways to mitigate the near-term affordability shock that will come from just having to invest in our system.
Robinson Meyer:
When we talk about air pollution, about actually kind of two different types of air pollution, right? There’s conventional air pollution. That’s stuff like nitrous oxides, sulfur oxides, particulate matter being particularly important there. All of those types of air pollution have local health effects. And that means they have local effects on the medical system, the public health system. And one thing I really like about your report is that you pull out and say, look, Trump’s policies here are going to cause 69,000 additional early deaths and 85,000 extra emergency room visits. Obviously, that’s quite significant. It has a big impact on people’s lives, obviously, as well as the health system overall, the economy. You project health care spending could increase by up to $1.7 billion a year. But there’s also these climate impacts that they avoid as well. I mean, this is why we care about them at Heatmap. I mean, we care about local air pollution, too. Not that Machiavellian. Renewables are important because they produce a decarbonized energy system and they avoid carbon dioxide emissions, which contribute to global climate change. One interesting thing that the Obama administration did back when it was trying to pass EPA regulations on power plants during its second term was that it was able to justify its
Robinson Meyer:
Power plant rules entirely on the back of what we would call co-benefits. That is, it said even if you ignore the climate benefits, you can actually justify their cost entirely on the back of their improvements to public health outcomes in the United States. Like people will be healthier and that will produce fewer medical costs and that will pay for the administrative burden of these rules on utilities.
Robinson Meyer:
Do we know if we can justify the benefits of these wind and solar tax credits entirely on their public health outcomes? Because I think that’s actually quite an important input here if we’re thinking about kind of justifying them in a federal budgetary context.
Amanda Levin:
I haven’t done the math on whether or not we can fully justify them through public health costs. But I think we should be thinking about both public health and climate when we talk about renewables. I think often we sometimes silo those emissions impacts and don’t recognize that there are a lot of different benefits that these types of clean energy investments can make. And it is part of the reason why I really wanted to emphasize that when we think about the value of tax credits or anything that can support clean energy that can be built today in the next few years, There is both a climate benefit to that, especially in the long term, but there are also nearer term benefits, just from an air quality perspective as well, that should be, considered by policymakers and the government that want to promote climate. Resources and technologies that will make a healthier environment and a healthier country.
Robinson Meyer:
The electricity system is so unusual because it is this big socialized natural monopoly, which we pay for kind of through user fees, but also kind of just because the system cost is like divvied up and then like chucked into the user fees. And this is not a show about rate making. But I think you and I agree that like the more we can do to get some of these socialized costs out of the rate base, which people pay for in their electricity bill and onto the tax base, which is more progressive,
Robinson Meyer:
Generally the better within reason. I guess one of my questions is like, is the right way to do that through directly subsidizing renewables? It might be. Or is it like through other forms of infrastructure, like building out a power grid? That we know utilities are really reluctant to do that could allow electricity grids more broadly to function in a kind of cleaner and more streamlined way. And that it seems to me that there are a lot of people who would like to build solar farms and are being stymied in those goals by the Trump administration. And that isn’t to say that there should be more of them, but like nobody’s building large scale transmission who number one doesn’t kind of believe in it ideologically. Or number two, it just seems like there’s a better role for the government there. Or at least it seems like there’s a big role for the government there. And that doing so would unlock a lot of wind and solar. And I wonder how you think about that trade-off.
Amanda Levin:
So I guess I tend to see it not so much as a trade-off versus these are complementary things that we need to do. I 100% agree that we need a modern review and approval process that can support the level of clean energy deployment that we need. And that today’s interconnection and permitting processes have resulted in thousands of gigawatts of new power kind of just being... Waiting to enter the grid and that we’re going to need a lot more transmission. Our own deep decarbonization modeling found that we would need to quadruple the transmission grid between now and 2050 if we were to meet our decarbonization, a net zero future.
Amanda Levin:
And so I think that that is incredibly important and that we are going to need, a transmission system and an interconnection process, which I’m not sure always has to go through federal policy versus what can be done through RTO reform and other types of things to be able to deploy the clean energy that we need.
Amanda Levin:
But I don’t know if just building out the transmission is going to result in the level of renewables and other investments that we need to meet, these types of big climate and renewable energy goals. I think it’s important to remember the intent of the clean electricity tax credits in the IRA, which were designed to last until the later of 2032, or when emissions, CO2 emissions in this case, from the power sector were 75% below 2022 levels. It wasn’t an arbitrary date for when we were going to continue to incentivize any clean energy technology, which was wind, solar, but also things like advanced nuclear or geothermal, there was a purpose behind those tax credits. It was, we have to meet and build a decarbonized grid, and it’s going to take a lot of clean electricity, whether that’s wind and solar and batteries in the near term, because those are technologies available today, or things like advanced nuclear geothermal that might be available in the next 15, 20 years. And a lot of the modeling that was done during the IRA times suggested that those tax credits would likely extend until the early 2040s, providing.
Amanda Levin:
Long timelines for us to figure out how do we build out the clean energy that we need. And yes, you need transmission, but I think we still need something else to deploy the level of clean energy once we have a grid that can handle it as well.
Robinson Meyer:
I totally, because I agree. I mean, I found that when the IRA was passed, I found the commitment made in those tax credits really significant. And I felt like it was often ignored, that the fact that the U.S. Congress and the president were committing to an open subsidy of clean energy technologies up until the point that basically the power sector was more or less decarbonized, basically 95% below or 90% below its emissions peak. And I realize you’re not here to comment on the politics, but I think that part of what we’re trying to wrestle with here are the politics. Because what I found was that, yeah, I could tell that to people, but like,
Robinson Meyer:
And if all things were equal, would I love to see the U.S. make a similar commitment in the future? Yes, obviously. You know, I’m not a climate reporter because I don’t care about this. But I did find the political environment to be completely unresponsive to this commitment made by lawmakers.
Robinson Meyer:
And a year after the IRA was passed, I found that the rhetoric from environmental groups, the present company accepted, a number of groups accepted. I don’t think everyone was a bad actor here, but I think the nature of the current media environment is that institutional groups that are here to kind of make policy happen have less sway over the discourse than groups that maybe see climate change not as a problem to be solved, but as a sin of our industrial capitalistic system. A year after the IRA has passed, what people were talking about was not this commitment that the U.S. had made. It was the fact that the president had allowed the Willow Project to go through, which was going to cause emissions. But the scale of those emissions was dwarfed by the emission reductions that were coming from the IRA. And by the way, the big constituency for the Willow Project was, yes, ConocoPhillips and also the indigenous communities on the north slope of Alaska that were begging for this project. And so, you know, there were other progressive reasons one might approve this project, but those didn’t factor into the discourse. What factored into the discourse was that the president was doing, President Biden, who’s very old and could barely talk, obviously that factored into it too, like was approving this project. But the,
Robinson Meyer:
My takeaway from this has been, and I don’t want to believe this, has been that, like, look, climate change is a global problem. And I want the U.S. to reduce its emissions because I think it makes the global politics of decarbonization easier. But if push came to shove, what I really want the U.S. to do is develop decarbonized net zero clean technologies that make it easier for all these other countries, that make it so that all those other countries have no choice but to choose clean. And while I think it’s great for us to build a lot of solar, like the scale of our demand isn’t really like meaningful compared to the scale of Chinese capacity on solar. They’re going to make a lot of solar panels. And so I guess my big lead up question here, and I encourage you to challenge any part of this, is like, shouldn’t the marginal dollar be spent on like enhanced geothermal or fusion or like a version of the AP1000 that’s as cheap as the Chinese have made their version of the AP1000? Because actually what matters is the global scale of the problem, not the U.S. emissions, which isn’t to say U.S. emissions are unimportant, just that, like, we’ve seen how the political sphere responds to U.S. emissions, and the answer is... I don’t know that people care.
Amanda Levin:
Yeah, I’ll just start by saying I am very happy that my job at NRDC is more on the policy and the modeling rather than the politics, because I think it is, you know, I think it is something that is hard to like, how do we sell what really are about future impacts and future generations? Yes, we feel the impact of climate change today already, and I think we look at the drought and the heat this summer as evidence of that, but so much of the cost that we bear today to try to avoid climate change is to avoid something that doesn’t always feel real. That being said, NRDC, and I think from my own deep decarbonization analysis, I know that we’re going to need more than just wind, solar, and battery storage. We need something that’s going to be firm and hopefully clean, whether that’s advanced nuclear, geothermal, long-duration energy storage.
Amanda Levin:
I think what I struggle with is what is the right mix between.
Amanda Levin:
Investing in the things today that can help with the problems that we face today, that can bring emissions down this decade when we really need it, and emissions both from a CO2 perspective, but also from all the other things, soot, smog, and that can help with affordability of our rates in the next 10 years. When we talk about advanced nuclear or geothermal, those aren’t things that will be online by 2035, at least at any massive scale. They are solutions for a system that is highly renewable that won’t even exist until the 2040s at scale. And yes, I do think that we should continue to invest in these emerging technologies because, the more options we have in the future, the better, especially not just for the U.S., but for the entire world that’s going to need to figure out how to meet growing demand in a much more clean way. But I think we already have given a lot of money to nuclear in particular there’s a lot of private interest in advanced nuclear right now especially from the hyperscalers and the question I have is how much more focus and how much more money should we put towards these things that won’t be around to help with the near-term issues today, and just to kind of put a piece on that near-term impact The one other thing I wanna emphasize is.
Amanda Levin:
We are already seeing some of this health pollution increase pretty significantly between 2024 and 2025. Sulfur dioxide emissions from the power sector were up over 18% just year over year, as we saw coal plants increase their generation, but also become dirtier. So it’s not just that not investing in wind and solar will increase emissions, but that the power sector can actually see pretty substantial changes just in a single year, based on what is available and what utilities are deciding to run. And so I do think that there is a near term value add to continue to invest in the things that actually can make a bite today versus solely focusing or, really heavily focusing on those technologies that we want to be around in the future, but are still years away from being part of the conversation.
Robinson Meyer:
From a policy standpoint, why does the near-term focus, why is that the more binding constraint?
Amanda Levin:
So I think I look at it in two ways. One is, Honestly, more of a messaging perspective, which is if we’re already past 1.5C, what is the incentive for countries, for individuals to really focus in on climate change? If the message is we’ve already lost, what do we just never end up accomplishing because we’ve given up? And I think that’s where some of the near term, just from a perspective, like a messaging perspective, can be really valuable, which is we can still make progress. We haven’t reached a tipping point yet. And there are things that we can do and that we should be doing now to start to bend the curve, whether it’s the U.S. specifically or the world as a whole. There are a lot of positive stories happening across the world right now on clean energy and on emission reductions.
Amanda Levin:
And I think the other piece is just the reality of there’s a lot about climate science that we may not fully understand. And I am talking, for example, about some of those tipping points of are we going to run into a world if we keep on increasing our emissions every year, where we actually have hit a point where we can’t turn back? And in addition to all the advanced technologies emerging clean from technology, of course, there’s also in that discussion things like direct air capture and other things that could help reduce emissions in the future. But I think there is a need to focus on the near term solutions to show that, one, we can make progress. It’s not hopeless. And two, to also start to bend the curve when we know that we haven’t gone too far.
Robinson Meyer:
I think those are great. I will observe that they’re a little politics adjacent. That a lot of this does kind of come back down to like where one kind of assesses messaging to be or what’s going to get people involved here. And it just seems to me to speak to the difficulty of policy on this issue.
Amanda Levin:
Yes, there always has to be a sense of, what is able to motivate both individuals, but also countries to address this problem, because it is just such a big problem that will also require quite a bit of changes from countries, from individuals, as they figure out what this future system has to look like if we actually tackle climate change. And maybe it’s partly because I have spent enough time around other advocates, especially on deep decarbonization. But I think there is a part of it that where I do think about, like, how do we actually get people to listen and what are the ways that we can, get people to change in the time that we have?
Robinson Meyer:
I just think all of, I’ve become very dubious that this kind of messaging can work on the mass public. I think that the mass public has to be addressed as a bit of a, we are doing these things because they are best for you, for health reasons, for air pollution reasons, for cost reasons, for lots of reasons. And then you can go to the elite audience. You can go to the fellow policymakers at COP69 or whatever, and be like, look at how we’ve reduced our emissions. I guess I feel like, and maybe this is wrong, but I feel like one of the lessons I’ve learned from China is that between energy independence, energy security, affordability, and fighting air pollution, conventional air pollution, you can get really far. And then if you’re far on those policies alone, maybe then you can strike the kind of bargains that are going to be crucial to actually achieving global decarbonization. But you have to get there first via self-interest, because otherwise it’s just too easy for a future JD Vance or Marco Rubio to go look at all these policies that we’re doing basically for the good of the world and not for the good of you as an American worker. And we’re going to get rid of them and we’re going to bring you cheap energy, even though they’re not really able to deliver on that promise. Anyway, I’m not sure how relevant that is to the wind and solar tax credit discussion, but it is where my brain is at the moment.
Amanda Levin:
I will just kind of to bring it back to the Inflation Reduction Act.
Robinson Meyer:
Yes.
Amanda Levin:
I do think that was part of the way that they tried to approach this during the IRA days, which was solar and wind is not just about climate. It is about local manufacturing and domestic manufacturing and energy security, having all of the pieces of the supply chain onshored and being able to build our own clean energy that won’t keep us vulnerable to price shocks, whether it’s Russia invading Ukraine or a war in Iran. I know, obviously, the Inflation Reduction Act was not around for long. It was designed to be around for many more years than what we had. But I do want to emphasize that I think that was actually a part of the IRA that saw pretty early success was the fact that we saw 380 manufacturing facilities announced. We doubled our battery manufacturing capacity. We quadrupled our solar manufacturing capacity.
Robinson Meyer:
And a lot of those policies remain on the books.
Amanda Levin:
On the books, yes.
Robinson Meyer:
I mean, they might be harder to access them. Yeah, exactly.
Amanda Levin:
And maybe that also speaks to how that kind of perspective that Hook worked is that this is about energy security. This is about domestic opportunities. But I think, you know, there’s a lot to build off from there as well, which is we now have more solar manufacturing capacity. We now have more battery manufacturing capacity.
Robinson Meyer:
Well, and I think it’s interesting that when Republicans, at least in the 2024 primary for the brief time that we got it, when they attacked the IRA, it was not on the back of I mean, it was on the back of climate change. We actually don’t hear as much that climate change isn’t real. What we hear is that it’s not worth it. And when Doug Burgum, for instance, attacked the IRA, it was actually an energy security argument about EVs and the role of Chinese mineral refining and processing. The point is that the energy security constraints, I think, rhetorically bind in the political sphere in a way that was then reflected by the fact that a lot of those policies stuck around, though not in total form.
Amanda Levin:
Yeah. And obviously, I think the war in Iran puts new light into energy security when thinking about electric vehicles.
Robinson Meyer:
Yes, totally. Totally.
Amanda Levin:
I think the only thing to stress there is just... The IRA did have some impacts, even in its early days. We saw 115 gigawatts of wind, solar, battery storage get deployed in just the first three years, which was record breaking amounts every year. And we expect to continue to see clean energy being built at record levels, at least for the next few years, as developers try to meet the new deadlines and timelines that have been set in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. And I think that is important when thinking about what is the impact from this administration is.
Amanda Levin:
It’s going to take some time for all of the policy rollbacks to actually be noticeable in modeling. It isn’t about what happens next year. It’s about how much further behind we are by 2030, 2032, 2035, and 2040. These were policies that were designed to fundamentally shift what our power sector and the broader U.S. energy system looked like in the long term, to move us towards more electric vehicles, more electric buildings, away from coal and gas and towards renewables and other clean technologies. And it’s always going to take time to be able to see the impacts from those types of policies in the data and in the modeling. And so I think one of the things when trying to grade, what were the impact of these policies and what does it mean now that the Trump administration has either repealed or significantly weakened some of these policies is you need to think about it in that five- to 10-year window of, what have we lost and how far behind are we going to be, within the next few years.
Robinson Meyer:
I think it’s a great point because it’s almost like compound growth, right? You have this stock of energy consuming technologies out there. And the longer you have that stock of fossil consuming technologies, and the more you add to it, the longer the effect persists into the future.
Amanda Levin:
Yeah. And I think it is one of the things that policymakers and other advocates are going to have to deal with, which is we are going to have, three more years, two more years of at least of investment in the wrong things, in the dirty things that might not be the smartest, least cost options for us in the long term. And how do we deal with both the emissions that come from that, as well as the costs that are going to be born in the future because we made potentially really bad bets today. And I think when I put it all together, the main takeaway I get, from kind of this report and thinking about where are we headed now that we have these new policies in place, this administration in place, is that Trump’s kind of assault on clean electricity, the ways that he is fundamentally altering the political environment for energy and clean energy in the U.S. is going to drive up our bills and stifle clean energy, at least over the next few years. And it’s going to leave us in a place where we need to redouble our approach to actually not only make up for lost time and try to address the harms that have happened, but catch back up to where we were headed before he took office.
Robinson Meyer:
Inshallah, we’ll have to leave it there. Amanda Levin, thank you so much for joining us on Shift Key.
Amanda Levin:
Thank you.
Robinson Meyer:
And that will do it for us this week, but stick around after the show for a conversation between Verse and Heatmap Labs. Shift Key is a production of Heatmap News. Our editors are Jillian Goodman and Nico Lauricella. Multimedia editing and audio engineering is by Jacob Lambert and by Nick Woodbury. Our music’s by Adam Kromelow. Thanks so much for listening. We’ll see you next week.
Mike Munsell:
My name is Mike Munsell and I’m the vice president of partnerships with Heatmap News. I recently sat down with Seyed Madaeni, CEO of Verse, to discuss the state of load growth and how Verse is working with data centers and other large energy consumers to connect to power quickly and efficiently.
Seyed Madaeni:
I’m Seyed Madaeni, CEO and co-founder of Verse. Our software platform, Aria, helps data centers connect to the grid faster and optimize power operations in real time.
Mike Munsell:
Sayed, thanks for joining the podcast, and I will hand it off to you. I’d love to hear more about yourself and Verse.
Seyed Madaeni:
So my background is in software in the energy world, and specifically, I’ve studied, learned, and practiced building software for managing large energy assets at the power grid. Right before Verse, I was the chief digital officer at Fluence, and before that, I used to lead a startup called AMS, and before that, at Tesla. And my career prior to Verse was mostly helping sellers of power increase their economic viability through the lens of software and renewables. But at Verse, we decided to do things differently and we essentially shifted teams and we’re now helping buyers of electricity, mostly large enterprises, to help them with fast, cheap and hopefully clean power. And that’s been a journey for us. I’m blessed to have a sizable team now and a great investors in our cap table and we’re helping some of the largest consumers of electricity to help them access power safer and sooner and also help them with their ongoing electricity spend which is a big topic these days given the enormous amount of data center infrastructure that needs to be connected to the grid in the next couple of years.
Mike Munsell:
Can you talk more about how Verse is solving that problem and even going further just about your background at Tesla and Fluence and these other companies and what sort of sparked the idea that led to Verse?
Seyed Madaeni:
If you look at energy assets, by energy assets, I mean power generating assets like solar or gas plants or what we call energy storage. These physical hardware, they’re capable of solving the most important problems at the grid level, from providing reliability to arbitraging energy spreads to maintaining capacity and participating in capacity markets. But traditionally these assets have been designed and deployed for what we call front of the meter or utility scale infrastructure.
Seyed Madaeni:
Now’s the time to shift that, although this concept has been around, but nowadays we’re placing the same type of assets behind a meter. And by meter, I mean the main meter that an enterprise or data center has. And essentially what it means is customer sighted. So once you deploy these assets, somebody needs to manage them every millisecond. And you manage them for a couple of more important things, such as satisfying the needs of the local utility, satisfying the needs of the host customer, and also creating economic value by participating in different wholesale markets. So my background, since you were asking, was actually doing that stuff for sellers of power. Now we’re bringing in for buyers of power. Plus, we also created, as part of our ARIA platform, a whole host of tools that gives visibility and contract management and risk management to the enterprise. So really, our vision has been how do we become a one-stop shop for enterprises and consumers of electricity through our Aria platform. It ranges from planning to contract management to physically orchestrating and controlling assets in real time. So for the first time, we’re bringing all of that on the one umbrella, and that is called Verse, which is supported by the amazing team that we have.
Mike Munsell:
Can you talk more about Verse’s business models? I know you talk about selling into the large corporates, but where you sit on sort of the energy value chain and who ultimately is paying for the solution within those corporates?
Seyed Madaeni:
Typically, enterprises, 10, 15 years ago, power was an afterthought. You paid your bills to the utility. It wasn’t really a strategic conversation. But nowadays, because of a couple of main reasons, one is the tremendous growth on AI load, which is putting pressure on power prices. Then you have geopolitical tensions. And then you have climate events. All of this have led to power and electricity spend becoming a board-level conversation for many enterprises. So our business model and our product suite tackles this problem from multiple angles. Not all enterprises enjoy all of the products that we offer. Some are mostly focused on contract management and risk management or managing the electricity spend, doing planning, maintaining and managing volatility in electricity markets and their exposure.
Seyed Madaeni:
Some need to take it to the next level and that is getting connected sooner to the grid which is mostly hyperscalers and data centers and new clouds where our business model is we work alongside our partner calibrant energy to help deploy these physical assets which could be solar and storage and gas and we essentially from a software perspective orchestrate and control these assets in real time so connecting from planning to all the way electrons flow we manage for the enterprises typically this is sold into folks who have titles of energy energy and utilities infrastructure or sometimes coos
Seyed Madaeni:
But it’s becoming a very high-level problem and a very critical and strategic problem for these organizations and our pipeline is a mix of traditional enterprises and retail and telecom, also a lot of hyperscalers given the kind of connectivity problems that they’re facing at the power grid level.
Mike Munsell:
That wraps up today’s conversation with Seyed Madaeni, CEO of Verse. Stay tuned after the next two episodes of Shift Key to hear more from Seyed on speed to power and what Verse’s recent series B raise means for its future.