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At least for the foreseeable future. But is the Manchin-Barrasso bill actually worth it?

So … is the permitting reform bill any good or not?
Earlier this year, Senators Joe Manchin of West Virginia and John Barrasso of Wyoming proposed a bill that would change federal environmental rules so as to spur a buildout of new energy infrastructure around the country.
Their proposal would have loosened rules for oil and gas drilling and exporting while changing federal law to encourage the construction of more clean energy.
These renewables-friendly changes included creating a new legal regime that would push utilities and grid operators to build significantly more long-distance power lines, triggering a nationwide boost to renewable resources. They would also have changed the regulations governing geothermal power generation, allowing new enhanced geothermal wells to play by the same federal rules that bind oil and gas.
The legislation was announced in July and then … nothing happened.
Now it seems likely to come back. Congress is eyeing its final agenda items for the year, and permitting reform is one of them. Representative Bruce Westerman, a Republican who chairs the House Committee on Natural Resources, is currently said to be revamping Manchin and Barrasso’s proposal to include reforms to the National Environmental Policy Act, a bedrock law that guides the process — but not the outcome — of virtually every major decision that the federal government makes and requires it to study the environmental impact of its policies.
We don’t know what those changes will look like yet, though they’ll have to come soon — the new Congress gets sworn in in just a few weeks. Which means lawmakers will have to get the proposed changes, process them, and decide whether to vote for them in a very short period of time — just a few days.
So during this liminal period, then, I wanted to take a moment to look at the other parts of the bill. Earlier this year, we got a sense of what the bill’s quantitative effects might be. They suggest that the legislation — at least in the initial version proposed by Manchin and Barrasso — could very well help cut U.S. emissions, or at least leave them flat. But after that? It starts to get complicated.
Republicans have long pushed for changes to the federal government’s permitting regime.
But in recent years, Democrats — who hope to prompt a national surge of clean energy construction — have come aboard too. The Biden administration, frustrated that some parts of the Inflation Reduction Act and Bipartisan Infrastructure Law haven’t resulted in the large-scale projects they hoped for, has come to back permitting reform explicitly, although they have not endorsed Manchin and Barrasso’s bill.
“The president has been clear … that we believe permitting reform should pass on a bipartisan basis — and that we believe permitting needs to be optimized for building out a clean energy economy,” John Podesta, a White House senior advisor who is now the country’s top climate diplomat, said in a speech last year.
The White House’s support of bipartisan permitting reform is more than just posturing: Because of Senate math, any changes to the country’s permitting laws almost certainly must be bipartisan. Until a bare majority of Democratic senators exists to kill the legislative filibuster, it will take a vote of at least 60 senators — a so-called supermajority — to alter most pre-existing federal legislation.
So the question, then, is: Is this attempt at permitting reform worth passing? Is this package of fossil fuel concessions and clean energy incentives likely to reduce emissions more than it increases them?
I won’t try to answer that question comprehensively today, and we can’t even answer it fully until we know the scope of Westerman’s changes. But I do want to share an analysis from the center-left think tank Third Way and other researchers that suggests that the answer is “yes.”
This analysis, released in September, argues that Manchin and Barrasso’s bill would modestly increase emissions by encouraging more oil and gas drilling on federal lands. But that increase would likely be dwarfed by a large decrease in emissions prompted by building out the country’s electricity transmission grid.
More specifically, it finds that while the pro-fossil fuel provisions could raise global climate pollution by as much as 6.1 billion metric tons by 2050, the bill’s support for transmission could cut emissions by as much as 15.7 billion metric tons in that time (although the final number, as you’ll see, is a very high end estimate). That’s because, as I’ve written before, building the grid will allow for more renewable, geothermal, and other forms of zero-carbon electricity generation to get built. And the country can only reduce emissions by building more zero-carbon electricity.
Some of those emissions increases from oil and gas are now likely to occur whether or not the bill passes — the Trump administration will encourage fossil fuel extraction and export far beyond what a Harris administration would have done.
But even in a more conservative scenario, the transmission provisions would still cut emissions by 6.5 billion metric tons by 2050, Third Way’s synthesis says. That would mean — when compared to the pro-fossil policies — that the bill has a much more modest effect overall, cutting emissions by just over 400 million tons through 2050.
These aren’t the only numbers out there. An analysis by Jeremy Symons, the former vice president of public affairs at the Environmental Defense Fund, argues that the bill’s loosening of some Biden-era restrictions on liquified natural gas export terminals will result in a tremendous LNG boom. He asserts that the bill’s LNG provisions could increase global emissions by 8.5 to 11 gigatons; his analysis, however, draws heavily from a controversial, initially erroneous, and now updated study from the Cornell ecologist Robert Howarth that contends American natural gas is far worse for the climate than coal.
Third Way did not include Symons’ study in its analysis. Instead, it cites a different study led by the Princeton professor Jesse Jenkins (with whom I cohost Heatmap’s Shift Key podcast) that uses natural-gas emissions estimates more in line with the broader scholarly literature. That modeling study indicates that the LNG provisions in the Manchin-Barrasso bill could increase emissions by as much as 3.3 gigatons — or decrease them by 2.4 gigatons.
I’m not going to get more into the LNG question in this story. And it’s somewhat less important than it was earlier this year because Trump administration is likely to approve as many LNG export terminals as it can. (That doesn’t mean those terminals will get built: Right now, a dozen LNG terminals have been approved but not built due to a lack of global demand for more LNG.) Instead, I want to dive into two specific provisions in the bill — on oil and gas leasing and transmission — that reveal the broader challenges of trying to speak concretely about this proposal.
By far the most climate-friendly provisions in EPRA concern its support of long-distance electricity transmission. As I’ve covered before, the lack of electricity transmission is now one of the biggest barriers to building new wind, solar, and other clean energy in the United States; the construction of new wind farms, in particular, seems to be slowing down because of a lack of available power lines to carry their electrons.
Manchin and Barrasso’s proposal aims to build more transmission largely by granting new powers to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, the independent agency that oversees the country’s power grids. EPRA would, for instance, allow FERC to step in and approve transmission lines that are “in the national interest” if a state has not acted on a given project within a year. The law also clarifies who should pay for a new power line, encoding the idea that customers who benefit from a line should pay for it. And it lets FERC approve payments from developers to the communities where new transmission infrastructure gets built, potentially smoothing approvals at the local level.
The bill also instructs FERC to write a rule that will require each part of the country to build a minimal amount of power lines that allow regions to exchange power with their neighbors. This measure — meant to spur new “interregional” transmission infrastructure — aims to knit the national grid more closely together and lower power costs on average.
How much would these policies reduce national emissions? The truth is, that’s extremely difficult to model. “There’s nothing in the EPRA that says, Thou shalt build this much transmission,” Charles Teplin, a grid expert at the think tank RMI, told me.
Instead, the bill aims to kick off a process that will result in more transmission getting built. That transmission should — in theory — bring more renewables online. But what will the size of that buildout be, and how many emissions will those renewables displace?
Answering these questions requires, again, estimating the uncertain. To come up with a reasonable, conservative figure to represent the amount of regional transmission that might get built under the new FERC process, they looked at what happened when a similar process was overseen by the Midwest’s grid. Then they rounded down that figure significantly.
Teplin and his colleagues also assumed that some big power lines that have already been proposed nationwide — roughly 15 gigawatts, to be exact — will get completed faster because of these new laws, so their analysis starts to bring them online by 2029. One only need look at the nearly two-decade saga of SunZia, a large power line that crosses New Mexico and Arizona, to see how long it can take to finish those projects today.
Under those assumptions, the law should more than double the rate of America’s transmission buildout, Teplin and his team estimated. Right now, the country builds perhaps 1 gigawatt of new transmission lines every year; under their assumptions, that would leap to 2 to 4 gigawatts a year.
So how many emissions would these new lines avoid? Using a report published by Grid Strategies, a power sector consulting firm that advocates for more transmission, Teplin and his colleagues estimate that each “gigawatt-mile” of new transmission will let operators add about 32 gigawatts of solar and wind to the grid each year. (This suggests that, most of the time, the lines would run at about 30% of capacity.)
Finally, the team assumed that electricity from these new renewable projects will replace power from natural gas plants. That, too, is an approximation: Some of those new wind and solar farms will drive out coal plants; others might replace non-emitting resources like nuclear or hydroelectric dams; but in general they will reduce gas burning.
When you put all those figures together, RMI’s analysis suggests that the legislation could build roughly twice as much new clean energy generation by 2050 as exists in all fossil-fuel power plants today. These new resources would help avoid about 6.5 gigatons of greenhouse gas emissions by the middle of the century.
That may seem like a big number — but Third Way was actually able to reach an even larger estimate. Teplin and his team didn’t try to differentiate, for instance, between the effects of a recent FERC order, which requires utilities to build more transmission within regions, and the proposed Manchin-Barrasso bill, which shores up the legality of that FERC order and would also induce utilities to build more power lines between regions. Some legal experts argue that the recent FERC order will be on shaky ground if the Manchin-Barrasso bill doesn’t pass; others say it’s stable enough as-is.
If you assume that courts will kill the FERC order unless Congress acts, then that should raise your estimate of what Manchin-Barrasso might do. That’s essentially what Third Way did — by giving the bill more credit for the resulting regional transmission buildout, they say that its carbon upside could be as large as 15.7 gigatons over the next 25 years. I’m not sure I would be that aggressive, but I think the transmission provisions would likely initiate a big buildout of renewables.
The Manchin-Barrasso bill contains a number of provisions that aim to increase the leasing of federal land for oil and gas drilling. One set requires that the Interior Department must offer a minimum amount of acres every year for oil and gas leasing. It also says that the land offered must be land that oil and gas companies actually want to lease.
This would address one of Republicans’ biggest objections to how the Biden administration has handled oil and gas extraction on federally owned land. As part of the Inflation Reduction Act, Manchin required that the government offer a minimum amount of oil and gas acreage for every acre of public land it leased to wind and solar developers. But Republicans have accused the Biden administration of getting around this rule by, in essence, offering useless or otherwise undesirable land.
(This concession, I should add, is now essentially moot until 2029, as the Trump administration will hasten to nominate the parcels that oil and gas companies are most excited to drill on. But it could bind a future Democratic administration, requiring them to offer good parcels for oil and gas leasing at the same time that they offer federal land for renewable development.)
The bill would also change some of the rules around the drilling allowed on the borders of federally owned land. Under the Manchin-Barrasso bill, companies could drill a vertical well on privately owned land, then extend it horizontally underground into federal land to extract oil or gas.
These provisions, too, are difficult to model. Much like the transmission proposal, they won’t lead to a guaranteed amount of drilling (although they will essentially produce a minimum amount of fossil fuel leasing). Nor will they substantially change the drilling that happens under Donald Trump or a future Republican president because any fossil fuel-loving administration is already free to go much further than these provisions would require them to.
To estimate the emissions impact of these provisions, the think tank Resources for the Future first tried to draw some error bars around their analysis. As a worst-case scenario, analysts modeled what would happen if the onshore drilling that happened during the Trump administration occurred every year from 2025 to 2050. Under this “Trump forever” scenario, emissions increase about 2.1 gigatons from 2025 to 2050. Under a less dire scenario, they would increase by about 0.6 gigatons during the same period.
These estimates almost certainly exceed what EPRA would actually do, Kevin Rennert, the director of RFF’s federal climate policy initiative, told me.
“None of the provisions would require the levels of leasing that we’re analyzing in the high-leasing scenario,” he said. “It’s clear [that the model is] a high upper bound on what EPRA itself would drive.” The provisions in the Manchin-Barrasso bill, in other words, are aimed much more at putting a floor under a future Democratic administration than they are raising a ceiling for a future Republican administration.
(Over all these discussions hangs a curious question about drilling for oil and gas on public land: How important is it, really? But that’s a question for another time.)
How you feel about this reform effort ultimately depends on how you feel about gambling. Is it worth hamstringing a future Democratic president’s ability to hem in oil production in exchange for unleashing a wave of new transmission under the Trump administration? How much do you weigh building more renewables versus selling more fossil fuels to the world?
Trump’s victory last month also changes the calculus. His administration will increase onshore oil and gas leasing regardless of whether this bill passes or not. He will stop the Energy Department’s effort to slow down the construction of LNG terminals and approve a new wave of projects. All of the bill’s support for fossil fuels, in other words, would be moot — Trump will do that stuff anyway. So the question becomes whether the bill’s support for new transmission infrastructure 1) actually builds new power lines, and 2) provides a useful tailwind for renewables and clean energy during what would otherwise be a difficult four years.
You can go in almost endless loops through the politics here. Given Trump’s antipathy toward renewables, why should we expect his administration to allow a transmission buildout in the first place, regardless of what Congress says? In which case, maybe the bill isn’t worth it. But on the other hand, maybe it is — since Trump’s going to do everything he can to juice fossil fuels and fight renewables, why not pass the bill and give power system regulators in blue and purple states an extra tool to juice clean energy construction? And hey, given Trump’s friendliness toward the AI boom, maybe he’ll wind up having to build more transmission just to service data centers.
We can’t make that political call quite yet. Until we know exactly how Westerman’s addition to the legislation would change NEPA, it’s hard to say where lawmakers should come down. But what’s clear is that this may be Congress’s last chance to deal with permitting reform for a while. Next year, the Republican majority is likely to be focused on tax cuts, and it’s not even clear that the reconciliation process would allow for changing permitting law. “We’re pretty pessimistic that you could include anything on permitting or transmission or any of these other things in the reconciliation process,” Devin Hartman, a policy director at the center-right think tank the R Street Institute, told Heatmap this week.
So this is it for permitting reform — it’s now or never for this set of changes. In a year full of surprises for climate and environmental law, we may yet get one more.
Jael Holzman contributed reporting.
Editor’s note: This story has been updated to correct the magnitude of emissions reductions from the Manchin-Barrasso bill found in Third Way’s analysis.
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A permitting deal seems closer than ever — but possibly delayed til after the election.
This is an edition of Heatmap Daily, an evening review of the day’s news written by our executive editor. Sign up for it here.
Good afternoon and happy Friday.
Let’s start with the news: The new episode of our podcast, Shift Key, is my full interview with U.S. Energy Secretary Chris Wright, which we recorded at Heatmap House in New York on Wednesday.
Listen to it here. You can find it on Heatmap’s website or wherever you get your podcasts. You don’t need to be a Heatmap subscriber to tune in.
My colleagues at Heatmap have covered a few takeaways from our conversation — including Secretary Wright’s prediction that there will not be a “blanket ban” on U.S. diesel exports, which he then hedged slightly — but we haven’t previewed everything, and I think the conversation is still worth your time. A few highlights:
We discussed the Trump administration’s lengthy war on wind and whether it might end in the future. “I do believe a successful permitting reform … changes the playing field for anything you want to build in this country, including wind,” Wright said. He also explained why he thought congressional Democrats should trust the administration’s word about that.
Wright hit on the Energy Department’s program to build a new fleet of nuclear reactors across the country, which could (if successful) bring roughly 10 gigawatts of zero-carbon electricity capacity online across five sites. There are now “well more than five” companies interested in entering the deal, he said, meaning that five will soon be selected. Allegedly there was a dinner last night to discuss the program, but we haven’t heard anything more about it.
Also up for discussion: whether the United States is leaning too hard into natural gas, how China has buttressed the global economy from the Strait of Hormuz oil shock, and why Wright thinks China is now the “swing importer” of oil globally and has successfully “taken off the peaks” of global pricing.
“If [China] were listening to me for their energy policy — and they are not — but if they were, I’d have them ramp up those refineries more rapidly because they have oil, the world has oil, but we’re very, very tight on refining capacity right now,” he said.
It was a fascinating conversation. Some of it pointed to ways that American energy policy will need to evolve in the future, regardless of which president or party is in charge. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube.
***
I’d be loath not to mention — at least briefly — all the movement in the past week on permitting reform.
When we last checked in on permitting over the summer, Daniel Palken, the head of infrastructure at Arnold Ventures, helped me understand the emerging outline of a bipartisan compromise deal on energy and infrastructure permitting. Senator Martin Heinrich of New Mexico also sketched the state of negotiations for us in August.
Since then, I had heard that Senate negotiators were making progress, but had not heard many concrete details. But this week we saw a flurry of activity. At the beginning of the week, the White House seemed to want to move quickly to seal a compromise, promising to allow stalled solar and wind projects to proceed in return for getting something inked before the midterm elections. (That said, actually getting a law passed before the November 3 elections would have required Speaker Mike Johnson to bring his caucus back to Washington, D.C.)
But late on Wednesday, Senate Democrats signaled that they want to slow down the talks and seemingly delay any deal until after November. “We believe there is a good deal to be had,” the lead Democratic negotiators, Senator Heinrich and Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, said in a statement today. But “getting that [deal] right has to matter more than election-year deadlines.”
As a reminder, any permitting deal will need at least 60 votes in the Senate in order to clear the filibuster hurdle. That means such a deal will almost certainly need to be bipartisan — and therefore that a deal can only come together in a political environment where legislators from both parties feel like they can plausibly prosper in the near-term by making it easier to build. Right now, it seems like both parties do feel that way, even if they’re bickering about whether to get a deal done before or after November.
I have been careful not to endorse any bill until I see it, of course. It will all depend on what’s in the final text. But it would be a mistake, I think, for House and Senate Democrats to let this legislating opportunity pass them by if they are indeed so close to a deal that the decarbonization hawks Whitehouse and Heinrich feel good about. Just because Congress reaches a deal now doesn’t mean it can’t reach another one in the future. As we’ve discussed on Shift Key, recent history suggests that when lawmakers adjust one part of the law or one statute, they feel more comfortable returning to it in the future, making further addendums as needed.
Remember: Because federal permitting laws chiefly constrain what the government can do, they act as a brake primarily on public infrastructure. It took years, recall, for state and local governments in New York to get the permits necessary to implement their own scheme to tax traffic congestion in New York City. If you want to build big new infrastructure in the United States, be it high-speed trains, transmission lines, or zero-carbon power plants — and if you specifically want the government to build public works faster and better than it has in recent decades — then you should want a different federal permitting scheme than we have now. Let’s hope congressional Democrats remember that in the days, weeks, and months to come.
Plus more on nuclear, EVs, China, and more, recorded live at our Heatmap House event at New York Climate Week.
Since taking office last year, the Trump administration has blocked renewable energy development and attacked climate change policy, prioritized fossil fuels and encouraged nuclear energy, and started a war that led to a global oil and gas supply shock.
U.S. Secretary of Energy Chris Wright has been the face of much of that policy agenda. For this episode of Shift Key, he joined Rob for a live conversation at our Heatmap House event, part of New York Climate Week. He answered questions about the Trump administration’s war on wind, a ban on diesel fuel exports, and how China has been able to buttress global oil supplies since the spring.
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Here is an excerpt from their conversation:
Robinson Meyer: Okay, let’s move to wind. So broadly, the Trump administration has seemed to have an issue with wind. It has taken a number of measures to block wind permits. I realize not all of these measures happened within the Department of Energy, but they have happened throughout the government. This has happened at the same time the grid is screaming for new sources of energy. So why wouldn’t a policy of American energy dominance embrace all forms of American energy, including wind?
Chris Wright: I would say it does. But there have been serious concerns in rural America and certainly in coastal America about development of wind farms. With the war in Russia, Ukraine, you see the change with drones. So there are legitimate national security concerns. I hope there’s mitigations and solutions to work it out. I suspect there will be, but I wouldn’t take all the administration’s activity as somehow like just to hamstring wind. There’s reasons for what’s going on behind the scenes. And I think you’ll see a robust development pathway going forward.
Meyer: Do you think that — I would say that it is hard to believe that, necessarily, when the president has been so personally vocal about wind?
Wright: He is not a fan of wind energy. I will give you that. But also when you talk about it, I’ll give you that 100%. The other thing I think you’ve got to look at is, what he cares about is grid security and affordability of prices in the United States. He wants to reshore modern manufacturing here. We want to lead in artificial intelligence, which means you’ve got to have a grid that’s affordable as possible and that’s secure. What matters for an electricity grid is who’s there at peak demand time.
You know, we had a very cold, very cold East Coast this year. On January 27 in the evening, peak demand time in New England, wind, solar, and batteries combined were 2% of New England electric generation. We got 3% from burning trash in wood. So, you know, when we talk about the average amount of electricity generated by sources, this and that, it’s not a realistic representation of what underlines and secures the grid.
Our main thing was 35 years of subsidies is enough. Let’s take the training wheels off and let things run from there. There are roles for different energy technologies in different places, but mandating things, forcing things on, and subsidizing things for decades, it just makes energy more expensive.
Meyer: So the subsidies for wind are going away. They were repealed. They were in the Inflation Reduction Act. They were repealed by the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. I think the level of obstacles that we’ve seen from the administration has exceeded kind of just subsidies. It’s been any kind of permitted delay. You know, offices that previously approved permits are now, we’re blocking them. Do you think that this, first of all, why kind of block things if the subsidies have gone away? And two, do you think that is going to change going forward?
Wright: So look, I’m not at the center of that. That’s Interior, that’s Department of War. Those are other issues really outside of my purview. You’re right. Wind has been very controversial, and there have been very spirited dialogues in the administration about this. I do believe a successful permitting reform thing changes the playing field for anything you want to build in this country, including wind.
You can find a full transcript of the episode here.
Mentioned:
Chris Wright Doesn’t Think We’ll Have a Diesel Export Ban
Trump Keeps Wind Farms Waiting Despite Court Ruling
Trump’s War Against Wind Energy: A Timeline
Previously on Shift Key: How China Saved the World From Trump’s Energy Crisis
This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by ...
RE+ 26 is the largest clean energy event in North America, happening November 16th through 19th at the Las Vegas Convention Center. Register at re-plus.com and use code SHIFTKEY20 to save 20% off a Full Conference pass.
Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.
This transcript has been automatically generated.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Robinson Meyer:
This is a special New York Climate Week edition of Shift Key. Earlier this week, Heatmap House welcomed climate and energy leaders, experts, and influencers to Heatmap House, an all-day summit in New York City. One of those leaders was current U.S. Energy Secretary Chris Wright. Secretary Wright is the former CEO of Liberty Energy, a fracking and oil and gas services company. He’s also a former board member of Oklo, a nuclear startup, and at Liberty led an investment in the enhanced geothermal company Fervo Energy, which we’ve talked about on the show. As Energy Secretary, he’s prioritized fossil fuels and nuclear energy while attacking climate policy and the Paris Agreement. He and I were able to have a lengthy conversation. So lengthy, in fact, that as you’ll hear, we got cut off on time. But we were able to cover a number of topics that you’ve heard about previously on Shift Key, including the Trump administration’s attacks on wind energy, its plans to build out a new fleet of nuclear reactors nationwide, and the Chinese government’s bailout of the global oil market after the Strait of Hormuz closure. Let’s go to the show now. This conversation was recorded in front of a live audience at Heatmap House at 22 Vanderbilt in New York City.
Robinson Meyer:
Hello, here we are at New York Climate Week. My guest today is Secretary Wright. As you know, I am aware that lots of people are going to disagree with maybe some of the things that come up today, and I would just ask that we have a respectful and civic conversation. And also, Secretary Wright, I appreciate you being here, and I appreciate you being here at Heatmap. We know you have a choice when flying, and we’re glad you could be here with us today. First of all, anything you want to say before we get into it, because there’s a lot of ground to cover. And I want to keep it high energy, but just...
Chris Wright:
Absolutely. No, just saying I’m here because I love thoughtful dialogues on energy, climate change, and human lives. That’s been a passion my whole life, and nothing will change that.
Robinson Meyer:
Excellent. Well, hey, thank you so much for joining us. So let’s just start. We’re going to try to hit as many fuels as we can in the next several minutes.
Robinson Meyer:
But let’s start with policy. So Politico reported that President Trump has agreed to move forward with the number of wind projects that are currently frozen at the Department of Defense permitting clearinghouse. Reaching any deal, I think, on permitting reform is going to require a credible commitment from the administration not to continue messing with permits. And so can you tell us what is the state of these wind projects? And after this long legal history of renewable projects facing so many obstacles during the Trump administration, many of which have been ruled illegal by the courts. Why should congressional Democrats, and I think especially Senate Democrats, trust you that this is the time and permits are now free to move forward?
Chris Wright:
Yeah, since I’ve arrived, and this administration is about permitting reform, our belief has been you need to be able to build big things in America again. We did in the old days. We made it increasingly hard to build anything. So I’ve been engaged with Democrats, Republicans, Senate, House governors on building things in the country the entire time. I think we’re – I think, I hope we’re very close to a deal that will make it easier to build everything in America. And I think that’s a huge plus.
Robinson Meyer:
Can you tell us what the status is on these wind permits specifically? Are they moving forward? Has the president committed to making sure these things are approved?
Chris Wright:
Well, we’re still in the middle of negotiations in a deal that hasn’t fully come across. And I’m not in the center of the negotiations. This is among Senators, House, White House. I’m involved, but I’m not the center of that. I don’t want to steal anyone’s thunder or give anyone’s positions. But I think things have gone very well. I think we’re going to see, I think, an enormously positive development come out of it.
Robinson Meyer:
Has the president blessed the idea of a deal? Does he want a deal to come together here?
Chris Wright:
Yes, he does.
Robinson Meyer:
OK, let’s move to wind. So broadly, the Trump administration has seemed to have an issue with wind. It has taken a number of measures to block wind permits. I realize not all of these measures happened within the Department of Energy, but they have happened throughout the government. This has happened at the same time the grid is like screaming for new sources of energy. So why wouldn’t a policy of American energy dominance embrace all forms of American energy, including wind?
Chris Wright:
I would say it does. But there have been serious concerns in rural America and certainly in coastal America about development of wind farms. With the war in Russia, Ukraine, you see the change with drones. So there are legitimate national security concerns. I hope there’s mitigations and solutions to work it out. I suspect there will be, but I wouldn’t take all the administration’s activity as somehow like just a hamstring wind. There’s reasons for what’s going on behind the scenes. And I think you’ll see a robust development pathway going forward.
Robinson Meyer:
Do you think that I would say that it is hard to believe that necessarily when the president has been so personally vocal about wind?
Chris Wright:
He is not a fan of wind energy. I will give you that. But also when you talk about it, I’ll give you that 100%. The other thing I think you’ve got to look at is what he cares about is grid security and affordability of prices in the United States. He wants to reshore modern manufacturing here. We want to lead in artificial intelligence, which means you’ve got to have a grid that’s affordable as possible and that’s secure. What matters for an electricity grid is who’s there at peak demand time. You know, we had a very cold, very cold East Coast this year. On January 27 in the evening, peak demand time in New England, wind, solar and batteries combined were 2% of New England electric generation. We got 3% from burning trash in wood. So, you know, when we talk about the average amount of electricity generated by sources, this and that, it’s not a realistic representation of what underlines and secures the grid. Our main thing was 35 years of subsidies is enough. Let’s take the training wheels off and let things run from there. There are roles for different energy technologies in different places, but mandating things, forcing things on, and subsidizing things for decades, it just makes energy more expensive.
Robinson Meyer:
So the subsidies for wind are going away. They were repealed. Here, you should take your drink of water and I can talk briefly. The subsidies for wind have been repealed. They were in the Inflation Reduction Act. They were repealed by the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. I think the level of obstacles that we’ve seen from the administration has exceeded kind of just subsidies. It’s been any kind of permitted delay. You know, offices that previously approved permits are now, we’re blocking them. Do you think that this, first of all, why kind of block things if the subsidies have gone away? And two, do you think that is going to change going forward?
Chris Wright:
So look, I’m not at the center of that. That’s Interior, that’s Department of War. Those are other issues really outside of my purview. You’re right. Wind has been very controversial, and there have been very spirited dialogues in the administration about this. I do believe a successful permitting reform thing changes the playing field for anything you want to build in this country, including wind.
Robinson Meyer:
Do you think we’ll see the president tweet that he is okay with wind as long as we get permitting reform? Can we get a message from the president? Because I think it would help.
Chris Wright:
I wouldn’t count on that one.
Robinson Meyer:
The Department of Energy, in one of the biggest initiatives under your secretariat, I’m not sure how you would describe it, is moving forward with this plan to offer $17 billion, I think, to build 10 new reactors across five sites across the country. It’s a big program. We haven’t heard an update on it lately, and I was hoping we could get one from you now. Do we have, is there offtake? Who’s offtake for these reactors? Do you have five customers lined up? What is going on with this program now?
Chris Wright:
There’s a dinner on this very topic tomorrow night in New York City. I can’t tell you where it is, and I won’t be at the dinner, but I was just on the phone with my colleagues. So there are multiple competitors, well more than five, that are interested in this. So now it’s a little bit of a selection process. So this is with utilities that are power developers. There are offtakers. These are like package deals of where’s the most viable place we can get nuclear moving soon. And yes, and it’s using debt credit to help order the long lead time part so we can speed it up. Nuclear just hasn’t moved in my adult lifetime, and we want to get that ball moving.
Robinson Meyer:
What’s interesting, I think, about this program, I mean, there’s a number of things. First of all, obviously, if it succeeds, it will have big climate benefits. Second of all, the administration has been very harsh on the idea of energy subsidies. I mean, we were just talking about it in the context of solar and wind. And yet, low-interest loans are a form of subsidy. And so why should nuclear be subsidized when seemingly no other form of energy should be subsidized?
Chris Wright:
So great question, and totally fair question. My view as a capitalist and passionate about energy is the government smothered nuclear energy. It came out of the gate strong, quickly got to 20% of U.S. electricity. We built over 100 reactors. We created the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and in the last 30 years, we built two reactors. We made it virtually impossible to build a nuclear reactor. I would say renewables are part of the problem here, because when you pay three cents a kilowatt hour as a subsidy for wind, when the value of that kilowatt hour is you’re reducing the consumption of two cents of natural gas, you distort electricity markets. And they’re going to spin at all times. So they’ve got these little 15-minute price increments are negative. So by distorting the market for some climate reasons or policy reasons, we also killed the commercial opportunity for nuclear. Our thing is just to try to get it back on its feet and get out of the way. But you’re right. Is the government leaning in a little bit to help get nuclear moving? Yes. Is that a market distortion? It is. But I think we’re making up for decades, decades of hamstringing the industry, and then it’s got to run and compete on its own.
Robinson Meyer:
And why should nuclear get the subsidy when solar and wind shouldn’t?
Chris Wright:
Well, wind’s had it for 35 years and solar like 27 years. So they’ve had it for a very long time. But the bigger reason why am I personally, I worked in solar energy and solar energy has a future. Absolutely. Why am I way more bullish on nuclear? Two reasons. It delivers the form of electricity that people will buy, which means it’s there whether the wind’s blowing or the sun’s shining or the weather changes. It’s there 24-7, and only 20% of global primary energy is delivered via electricity wires. Like, electricity is awesome. I love it. It isn’t even the most important form of energy. The most important form of energy is heat. It keeps millions of people alive, and it powers the manufacturing of plastics and steel. You can’t build wind turbines and solar panels without massive amounts of process heat, which is why most of that stuff is done coal-fired in Western China with slave labor. You need massive amounts of process heat for a modern world. Nuclear can not only provide electricity in the form people will buy, it can deliver process heat. It can be a big deal in global energy in the decades ahead.
Robinson Meyer:
Can I ask, so this kind of effect in the electricity markets you’re describing where solar is competing with gas and solar is intermittent, so it runs during the date. Now, of course, batteries can hold solar energy and allow it to run overnight. But this effect that you’re describing where solar and gas are competing with each other and then nuclear is disadvantaged, that effect seems inherent to how electricity markets function to me, where electricity markets are always going to favor whatever the cheapest source in the merit order is at any moment. And so do you think... Long-term, because among the benefits to solar and wind and gas has been how they function within electricity markets. Do you think long-term how electricity markets function needs to change, or our country’s use of electricity markets needs to change?
Chris Wright:
I think we should have smarter design of electricity markets. As you well know, it’s very complicated. But electricity that’s going to be there when your kid’s in the incubator, you know, when it’s dark and still at night, that is the electricity we need. Paying the same value for a source that’s there some of the time and not there some of the time has led to these distortions. And to say just not just these theories, let me give the numbers. 10 states in the United States have closed all their coal plants. You know, that’s all justified in the name of climate action. If I compare the price of electricity in those 10 states, not cherry-picked, the average of those 10 states versus the 10 states with the highest existing concentration of coal on the power grid, their electricity is 79% higher. The more we build cheap electricity, the more expensive electricity gets. There’s obviously more to the store.
Robinson Meyer:
I was going to say the coal plants closed because they could be refired with natural gas often, right? Like the reason coal closed is because you can stick a natural gas generator into an old coal plant and run it cheaply. And you do better on various other kind of conventional pollution, conventional pollution measurements.
Chris Wright:
Agree with you 100%. So that’s a natural evolution. That’s how coal went from over 50% of US electricity to now third behind nuclear and natural gas is displayed at by market. But the places that have gone further and said, we’re going to close them by this date that have done it for not the rational business reasons you gave, but for climate or state political reasons, they have driven up electricity prices way beyond any natural evolution of coal.
Robinson Meyer:
Those are the 10 that you’re talking about, in other words.
Chris Wright:
Yes.
Robinson Meyer:
Let’s talk about natural gas. So one phenomenon that’s happening right now is that we are exporting, we’re getting ready to export more natural gas than we ever have before in this country. At the same time, we’re running this huge data center boom, basically on natural gas, often natural gas right at the site, because we’re generating electricity and then feeding it directly into data centers. At the same time, natural gas runs American industry. It is the source of process heat for a lot of factories and manufacturing operations. It seems like we are really leaning hard into natural gas. Should the United States be doing something to prepare for a natural gas price shock? Because right now we are becoming kind of single point vulnerable on the natural gas system. And when you talk to frackers, they know there’s supply, but they’re not sure they can continue increasing production to meat supply.
Chris Wright:
So, and I think that’s a little bit of optimism, right? If you’re in the business of oil and gas or wind or whatever business you’re in, you’re hoping higher prices and higher prices are about to come here. I think that’s an unrealistic view. 20 years ago, the United States had 1,200 rigs drilling for natural gas, and we were the largest importer of natural gas on planet Earth. Today, we have 125, 90% reduction in the number of rigs drilling for natural gas. We’ve more than doubled our production. where the world’s largest exporter takes one rig to support a BCF a day of production. That’s 6 gigawatts of electric generating. We have a gub-smacking amount of natural gas. We will never remotely come close to touching the volume of gas we had. But the U.S. has decades, truly generations of maybe not $2.50 gas, but if you get to $3.50 or $4, which is still in diesel equivalent prices like $0.60 or $0.70 a gallon, Just as far as the rest of your lifetime, it’s very hard to get domestic natural gas prices meaningfully high, only in local markets because of pipeline constraints.
Robinson Meyer:
So you’re not worried at all that we’re going to run into supply constraints on natural gas anytime soon? Because it does seem to me moving from $2 to $3.50 or $4, that is a small change in nominal terms. Of course, that would have big effects on the economics of any operation that relied on gas, right?
Chris Wright:
Now, I mean, look, gas was $8 20 years ago. The inflation-adjusted price of gas has continued to trend down. It’s been flattest the last few years. Maybe it’s flattest for the next five or 10 years. Does it escalate a little bit going out? Yes. Will it be the cheapest form of dispatchable electricity, at least for the next couple decades? Yes. I hope nuclear comes down. We can get the cost down someday so it can compete and outcompete natural gas, I hope. But that’s a tall order.
Robinson Meyer:
But you don’t see a strategic reason or an energy conservation or a diversification reason to move away from gas.
Chris Wright:
Now, right now, it is America’s energy superpower. You know, it’s high 30 percent of total primary energy production in the United States. It’s the fastest growing energy source on planet Earth in absolute terms of new energy added. It’s grown 3% compound annual growth rate for 50 years. Oil is growing at 1% because much more expensive than gas and it’s much less available. Oil has much more —
Robinson Meyer:
If all this is true, why invest in nuclear then? I guess I — I mean, I’m very pro because good for climate. But like, what is, yeah.
Chris Wright:
Back to your argument. Gas is, you know, in my lifetime, is going to be the American energy superpower for sure. But you never want all your eggs in one basket. You never want all your eggs in one basket. The future of the earth is long indeed. And nuclear is an energy source that will take time. But it eventually can come down at cost. It can deliver heat. It can deliver energy. And I don’t want all my eggs in one basket in natural gas. It is going to continue to grow. its market share, but it doesn’t mean you just bet on the one. We need multiple.
Robinson Meyer:
Can solar and batteries also help diversify the eggs in our basket?
Chris Wright:
They can, but I think the scaling possibilities, they’re much less. If you take all the batteries in the United States today, you can’t store five minutes of electric grid production. I love batteries. They have a key role in industrial technologies. They help in stabilizing the grid. But you said you can use solar and store it through the night. That is a monster amount of batteries. And so we got to keep driving battery prices down. But will solar and batteries play a role?
Robinson Meyer:
I think when you look at the queue for Texas or when you look at the queue for a number of grids, we are going to add a lot of batteries in the coming years.
Chris Wright:
Oh, 100%. No, I’m all in on batteries. And I like solar as well. Yeah, absolutely. Solar and batteries have a future, but their possible future is nowhere near as large as the possible future of nuclear.
Robinson Meyer:
I said we were going to try to hit as many fuels as possible. I’m going to keep it up.
Robinson Meyer:
Diesel. The president reportedly endorsed a diesel export ban yesterday. I want to ask you, because you’ve been critical of this idea in the past, should the U.S. ban the export of diesel fuels today?
Chris Wright:
Well, look, I always speak candidly, and I’ve seen stuff in the press like the energy secretary disagrees with the president. Absolutely not true. He didn’t endorse it. He did the same thing I’ve done when I’ve been asked about it. Are you open to that idea? We are open to any ideas that can lower energy prices for Americans. We have a continual thoughtful dialogue based on the facts on the ground of what are the most practical steps moving forward. And it looks like right now we do need to grow the diesel supply in the United States. This is more likely to be done entirely voluntary. We will not cease exports of U.S. diesel. But may there be some tweak in where diesel flows out of U.S. refineries. I think we’re going to see that because it can stop the rise in price of diesel.
Robinson Meyer:
If the U.S. were to ban diesel exports, wouldn’t it immediately hurt our reputation as an energy superpower, so to speak?
Chris Wright:
It certainly would have impacts. It certainly would have impacts. I don’t think there’s serious consideration, although there’s always been a dialogue about it, with the president across the cabinet about these things. Are we going to make adjustments with diesel? I think so. But no, I don’t think you will see a blanket ban on diesel. And yes, of course, we want to be the energy superpower supplying the whole world, and we care about that.
Robinson Meyer:
What’s your read? So from diesel to oil, remaining within the ambit of the Strait of Hormuz fallout, what’s your read of how China helped stave off the worst of the supply shock from oil? I was talking to someone in the industry yesterday, and they said, you are the only government official, not the only Trump administration official, but the only government official they saw, who explicitly has said Beijing released from its strategic supply to help buttress global, to help buttress its own oil supply. And so how large has that release been and how much longer do you think they can keep it up?
Chris Wright:
Yeah, so China has the world’s largest stores of oil. China has been very rational about energy for a long time, and they’ve been very aggressive on energy. And you’re right, early on as oil prices spiked up, China replaced the United States as the largest importer of oil in the world. Now we briefly were the largest exporter of oil in the world. China is still a huge oil importer, so they’re hurt a lot by high prices. They stopped building their inventories as the first thing they did. Then they drew from commercial stocks. They have abundant commercial stocks as well. And I think they’ve drawn a little bit from their strategic stocks, but they have an enormous amount of oil. The challenge today is not so much oil prices as refining capacity. So China turned down their refineries, drew from stocks. Now China’s increasing their refineries of oil and gas. If they were listening to me for their energy policy, and they are not. But if they were, all right, have them ramp up those refineries more rapidly because they have oil. The world has oil, but we’re very, very tight on refining capacity right now. That’s why diesel prices and jet fuel prices are so high.
Robinson Meyer:
I think their imports are still much lower than they have been historically. Do you know how long they can hold out not importing the level of oil? Because that’s basically saving the rest of the world from extremely high oil prices right now.
Chris Wright:
You’re right that it’s putting downward pressure on oil prices, but the world’s biggest problem for diesel right now is not oil prices.
Robinson Meyer:
It’s refining, yeah.
Chris Wright:
It’s refining capacity. So they’re helping push oil prices down, but their actions are helping push final product prices up, and that’s what consumers care about. So we want them to be a little less constructive on oil prices and a little more constructive on product prices, and that is the direction they’re heading. They are ramping up their refining, and they’re ramping up their exports of refined products, and I hope they continue that direction.
Robinson Meyer:
Do you think Beijing is now the swing consumer of oil in the world?
Chris Wright:
They’re the swing importer. It isn’t changing meaningfully their consumption, but they just have huge buffer stocks that they can reduce their imports rapidly, and they are the swing importer of oil.
Robinson Meyer:
Given that the current U.S. energy security policy is to drill as much as possible, and I would add has been for some time the idea that U.S. supply of oil is going to be key to U.S. energy security. Does the fact that China is now the swing importer of oil, let’s say, and the swing buyer on the global market and could seems to be shaping oil prices on a level that’s akin to how it shapes like global mineral prices? What does that mean for U.S. energy security?
Chris Wright:
Well, their behavior so far has like taken off the peaks. Yeah, they’ve prevented oil prices from going as high as the other would. That’s that’s, of course, quite a positive. They’re just very commercially minded. You know, if prices go high, well, you buy less. If prices go low, they buy more. You know, when oil prices are depressed, they fill their stocks faster. So they’ve just been very commercially minded in how they deal with oil markets. And overall, that’s a positive.
Chris Wright:
Yeah.
Robinson Meyer:
EVs, okay, next fuel. EVs are now more than 25% of new vehicle sales globally. They were more than half of new vehicle sales in Australia, our ally, in the month of August. Last year, the Trump administration ended consumer side subsidies for EVs. Given that EVs are important to manufacturing, to security, how can the U.S. Ever catch up without incentives, number one? But number two, just how can the U.S. ever catch up in this extremely important global industry?
Chris Wright:
Well, we had incentives for a long time. And first of all, we have Tesla, absolutely phenomenal company. They make phenomenal EVs. And they’re a global leader in EVs. And as we talk backstage, that has spinoff technologies to it. That’s fantastic. But look at the demographics who buy EVs. That’s well-off people that for their second or third car, mostly, not entirely. But it’s well-off people buying it. Should we have the broader America subsidizing, you know, the habits of wealthy people? I don’t think we should. Maybe it was OK to launch the industry, but the industry is going and around. When you force people to do something, as the Biden administration did, you know, GM and Ford, they’re going to go out of business.
Robinson Meyer:
I don’t think they forced anyone.
Chris Wright:
They said they were going to phase out. They had these strict goals. Believe me, Ford and GM, I talk to these people very often. They did not want to be forced to end their internal combustion vehicle, California regulations as well, and be forced to transition to EVs. And consumers told you have to buy something. If you impose something on someone, people immediately recoil from it. If you say, hey, there’s a cool new technology, do you want to buy it? People adopt that. This is the same thing we’re doing with the long-term spent fuel disposal in the United States. When they said it’s at Yucca Mountain, everyone in Nevada said, you’re not imposing on that. We said, who wants to host those campuses? 26 states responded, six have aggressive proposals. You want an opt-in on a technology. EVs are a cool, neat new technology. Let consumers choose what kind they want, what brand they want. Let the marketplace compete, and they’ll continue to grow and advance globally. But making people do them, particularly on the false premise that they’re a climate technology, it is every bit as carbon intensive to run an EV the life of an internal combustion vehicle
Robinson Meyer:
Because they’re so greenhouse gas. I don’t think that is true. I don’t think that is true. I think they are more efficient. You can run them off a coal plant and they are less carbon intensive.
Chris Wright:
They published the data on it. You have to drive a Tesla 80,000 miles on today’s US electricity grid to get your greenhouse gas emissions down to the level of an equivalently size. Volkswagen has published data on this. It’s two and a half times more energy intensive to make them.
Robinson Meyer:
I haven’t seen the data. I would say I hope Tesla can drive for longer than 80,000 miles because I would expect that from a car. I want to kind of lean in on this, though, because I think it sounds like what you’re saying is the U.S. forced Americans, you know, the government kind of forced Americans to buy EVs, and Americans were like, no, I don’t want EVs. Secretary Wright, thank you so much for joining us.
Chris Wright:
Thanks so much.
Robinson Meyer:
And we had to leave it there. As you heard, it was such a lengthy and lively conversation. We actually went well past the time that we had booked and had to just end things abruptly. Obviously, there was so much more to discuss. And obviously, I’d say we have to get Secretary Wright back on the show to talk about everything that we didn’t have time to discuss on stage. We’re going to be releasing more conversations from Heatmap House in the next days and weeks on the show. I’m very excited to share them. It was an incredible day. And if you were there, thank you for coming. If you weren’t there, hopefully we can get you into Heatmap House in the future. Until next week, Shift Key is a production of Heatmap News. Our editors are Jillian Goodman and Nico Lauricella. Multimedia editing and audio engineering is by Jacob Lambert and Nick Woodbury, who came all the way up to New York to record this conversation live. Thank you, Nick. Our music is by Adam Kromelow. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.