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Inside Climeworks’ big experiment to wrest carbon from the air

In the spring of 2021, the world’s leading authority on energy published a “roadmap” for preventing the most catastrophic climate change scenarios. One of its conclusions was particularly daunting. Getting energy-related emissions down to net zero by 2050, the International Energy Agency said, would require “huge leaps in innovation.”
Existing technologies would be mostly sufficient to carry us down the carbon curve over the next decade. But after that, nearly half of the remaining work would have to come from solutions that, for all intents and purposes, did not exist yet. Some would only require retooling existing industries, like developing electric long-haul trucks and carbon-free steel. But others would have to be built from almost nothing and brought to market in record time.
What will it take to rapidly develop new solutions, especially those that involve costly physical infrastructure and which have essentially no commercial value today?
That’s the challenge facing Climeworks, the Swiss company developing machines to wrest carbon dioxide molecules directly from the air. In September 2021, a few months after the IEA’s landmark report came out, Climeworks switched on its first commercial-scale “direct air capture” facility, a feat of engineering it dubbed “Orca,” in Iceland.
The technology behind Orca is one of the top candidates to clean up the carbon already blanketing the Earth. It could also be used to balance out any stubborn, residual sources of greenhouse gases in the future, such as from agriculture or air travel, providing the “net” in net-zero. If we manage to scale up technologies like Orca to the point where we remove more carbon than we release, we could even begin cooling the planet.
As the largest carbon removal plant operating in the world, Orca is either trivial or one of the most important climate projects built in the last decade, depending on how you look at it. It was designed to capture approximately 4,000 metric tons of carbon from the air per year, which, as one climate scientist, David Ho, put it, is the equivalent of rolling back the clock on just 3 seconds of global emissions. But the learnings gleaned from Orca could surpass any quantitative assessment of its impact. How well do these “direct air capture” machines work in the real world? How much does it really cost to run them? And can they get better?
The company — and its funders — are betting they can. Climeworks has made major deals with banks, insurers, and other companies trying to go green to eventually remove carbon from the atmosphere on their behalf. Last year, the company raised $650 million in equity that will “unlock the next phase of its growth,” scaling the technology “up to multi-million-ton capacity … as carbon removal becomes a trillion-dollar market.” And just last month, the U.S. Department of Energy selected Climeworks, along with another carbon removal company, Heirloom, to receive up to $600 million to build a direct air capture “hub” in Louisiana, with the goal of removing one million tons of carbon annually.
Two years after powering up Orca, Climeworks has yet to reveal how effective the technology has proven to be. But in extensive interviews, top executives painted a picture of innovation in progress.
Chief marketing officer Julie Gosalvez told me that Orca is small and climatically insignificant on purpose. The goal is not to make a dent in climate change — yet — but to maximize learning at minimal cost. “You want to learn when you're small, right?” Gosalvez said. “It’s really de-risking the technology. It’s not like Tesla doing EVs when we have been building cars for 70 years and the margin of learning and risk is much smaller. It’s completely new.”
From the ground, Orca looks sort of like a warehouse or a server farm with a massive air conditioning system out back. The plant consists of eight shipping container-sized boxes arranged in a U-shape around a central building, each one equipped with an array of fans. When the plant is running, which is more or less all the time, the fans suck air into the containers where it makes contact with a porous filter known as a “sorbent” which attracts CO2 molecules.

When the filters become totally saturated with CO2, the vents on the containers snap shut, and the containers are heated to more than 212 degrees Fahrenheit. This releases the CO2, which is then delivered through a pipe to a secondary process called “liquefaction,” where it is compressed into a liquid. Finally, the liquid CO2 is piped into basalt rock formations underground, where it slowly mineralizes into stone. The process requires a little bit of electricity and a lot of heat, all of which comes from a carbon-free source — a geothermal power plant nearby.
A day at Orca begins with the morning huddle. The total number on the team is often in flux, but it typically has a staff of about 15 people, Climeworks’ head of operations Benjamin Keusch told me. Ten work in a virtual control room 1,600 miles away in Zurich, taking turns monitoring the plant on a laptop and managing its operations remotely. The remainder work on site, taking orders from the control room, repairing equipment, and helping to run tests.
During the huddle, the team discusses any maintenance that needs to be done. If there’s an issue, the control room will shut down part of the plant while the on-site workers investigate. So far, they’ve dealt with snow piling up around the plant that had to be shoveled, broken and corroded equipment that had to be replaced, and sediment build-up that had to be removed.

The air is more humid and sulfurous at the site in Iceland than in Switzerland, where Climeworks had built an earlier, smaller-scale model, so the team is also learning how to optimize the technology for different weather. Within all this troubleshooting, there’s additional trade-offs to explore and lessons to learn. If a part keeps breaking, does it make more sense to plan to replace it periodically, or to redesign it? How do supply chain constraints play into that calculus?
The company is also performing tests regularly, said Keusch. For example, the team has tested new component designs at Orca that it now plans to incorporate into Climeworks’ next project from the start. (Last year, the company began construction on “Mammoth,” a new plant that will be nine times larger than Orca, on a neighboring site.) At a summit that Climeworks hosted in June, co-founder Jan Wurzbacher said the company believes that over the next decade, it will be able to make its direct air capture system twice as small and cut its energy consumption in half.
“In innovation lingo, the jargon is we haven’t converged on a dominant design,” Gregory Nemet, a professor at the University of Wisconsin who studies technological development, told me. For example, in the wind industry, turbines with three blades, upwind design, and a horizontal axis, are now standard. “There were lots of other experiments before that convergence happened in the late 1980s,” he said. “So that’s kind of where we are with direct air capture. There’s lots of different ways that are being tried right now, even within a company like Climeworks."
Although Climeworks was willing to tell me about the goings-on at Orca over the last two years, the company declined to share how much carbon it has captured or how much energy, on average, the process has used.
Gosalvez told me that the plant’s performance has improved month after month, and that more detailed information was shared with investors. But she was hesitant to make the data public, concerned that it could be misinterpreted, because tests and maintenance at Orca require the plant to shut down regularly.
“Expectations are not in line with the stage of the technology development we are at. People expect this to be turnkey,” she said. “What does success look like? Is it the absolute numbers, or the learnings and ability to scale?”
Danny Cullenward, a climate economist and consultant who has studied the integrity of various carbon removal methods, did not find the company’s reluctance to share data especially concerning. “For these earliest demonstration facilities, you might expect people to hit roadblocks or to have to shut the plant down for a couple of weeks, or do all sorts of things that are going to make it hard to transparently report the efficiency of your process, the number of tons you’re getting at different times,” he told me.
But he acknowledged that there was an inherent tension to the stance, because ultimately, Climeworks’ business model — and the technology’s effectiveness as a climate solution — depend entirely on the ability to make precise, transparent, carbon accounting claims.
Nemet was also of two minds about it. Carbon removal needs to go from almost nothing today to something like a billion tons of carbon removed per year in just three decades, he said. That’s a pace on the upper end of what’s been observed historically with other technologies, like solar panels. So it’s important to understand whether Climeworks’ tech has any chance of meeting the moment. Especially since the company faces competition from a number of others developing direct air capture technologies, like Heirloom and Occidental Petroleum, that may be able to do it cheaper, or faster.
However, Nemet was also sympathetic to the position the company was in. “It’s relatively incremental how these technologies develop,” he said. “I have heard this criticism that this is not a real technology because we haven’t built it at scale, so we shouldn’t depend on it. Or that one of these plants not doing the removal that it said it would do shows that it doesn’t work and that we therefore shouldn’t plan on having it available. To me, that’s a pretty high bar to cross with a climate mitigation technology that could be really useful.”
More data on Orca is coming. Climeworks recently announced that it will work with the company Puro.Earth to certify every ton of CO2 that it removes from the atmosphere and stores underground, in order to sell carbon credits based on this service. The credits will be listed on a public registry.
But even if Orca eventually runs at full capacity, Climeworks will never be able to sell 4,000 carbon credits per year from the plant. Gosalvez clarified that 4,000 tons is the amount of carbon the plant is designed to suck up annually, but the more important number is the amount of “net” carbon removal it can produce. “That might be the first bit of education you need to get out there,” she said, “because it really invites everyone to look at what are the key drivers to be paid attention to.”
She walked me through a chart that illustrated the various ways in which some of Orca’s potential to remove carbon can be lost. First, there’s the question of availability — how often does the plant have to shut down due to maintenance or power shortages? Climeworks aims to limit those losses to 10%. Next, there’s the recovery stage, where the CO2 is separated from the sorbent, purified, and liquified. Gosalvez said it’s basically impossible to do this without losing some CO2. At best, the company hopes to limit that to 5%.
Finally, the company also takes into account “gray emissions,” or the carbon footprint associated with the business, like the materials, the construction, and the eventual decommissioning of the plant and restoration of the site to its former state. If one of Climeworks’ plants ever uses energy from fossil fuels (which the company has said it does not plan to do) it would incorporate any emissions from that energy. Climeworks aims to limit gray emissions to 15%.
In the end, Orca’s net annual carbon removal capacity — the amount Climeworks can sell to customers — is really closer to 3,000 tons. Gosalvez hopes other carbon removal companies adopt the same approach. “Ultimately what counts is your net impact on the planet and the atmosphere,” she said.
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Despite being a first-of-its-kind demonstration plant — and an active research site — Orca is also a commercial project. In fact, Gosalvez told me that Orca’s entire estimated capacity for carbon removal, over the 12 years that the plant is expected to run, sold out shortly after it began operating. The company is now selling carbon removal services from its yet-to-be-built Mammoth plant.
In January, Climeworks announced that Orca had officially fulfilled orders from Microsoft, Stripe, and Shopify. Those companies have collectively asked Climeworks to remove more than 16,000 tons of carbon, according to the deal-tracking site cdr.fyi, but it’s unclear what portion of that was delivered. The achievement was verified by a third party, but the total amount removed was not made public.
Climeworks has also not disclosed how much it has charged companies per ton of carbon, a metric that will eventually be an important indicator of whether the technology can scale to a climate-relevant level. But it has provided rough estimates of how much it expects each ton of carbon removal to cost as the technology scales — expectations which seem to have shifted after two years of operating Orca.
In 2021, Climeworks co-founder Jan Wurzbacher said the company aimed to get the cost down to $200 to $300 per ton removed by the end of the decade, with steeper declines in subsequent years. But at the summit in June, he presented a new cost curve chart showing that the price was currently more than $1,000, and that by the end of the decade, it would fall to somewhere between $400 to $700. The range was so large because the cost of labor, energy, and storing the CO2 varied widely by location, he said. The company aims to get the price down to $100 to $300 per ton by 2050, when the technology has significantly matured.
Critics of carbon removal technologies often point to the vast sums flowing into direct air capture tech like Orca, which are unlikely to make a meaningful difference in climate change for decades to come. During a time when worsening disasters make action feel increasingly urgent, many are skeptical of the value of investing limited funds and political energy into these future solutions. Carbon removal won’t make much of a difference if the world doesn’t deploy the tools already available to reduce emissions as rapidly as possible — and there’s certainly not enough money or effort going into that yet.
But we’ll never have the option to fully halt climate change, let alone begin reversing it, if we don’t develop solutions like Orca. In September, the International Energy Agency released an update to its seminal net-zero report. The new analysis said that in the last two years, the world had, in fact, made significant progress on innovation. Now, some 65% of emission reductions after 2030 could be accounted for with technologies that had reached market uptake. It even included a line about the launch of Orca, noting that Climeworks’ direct air capture technology had moved from the prototype to the demonstration stage.
But it cautioned that DAC needs “to be scaled up dramatically to play the role envisaged,” in the net zero scenario. Climeworks’ experience with Orca offers a glimpse of how much work is yet to be done.
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Current conditions: A cluster of thunderstorms is moving northeast across the middle of the United States, from San Antonio to Cincinnati • Thailand’s disaster agency has put 62 provinces, including Bangkok, on alert for severe summer storms through the end of the week • The American Samoan capital of Pago Pago is in the midst of days of intense thunderstorms.
We are only four days into the bombing campaign the United States and Israel began Saturday in a bid to topple the Islamic Republic’s regime. Oil prices closed Monday nearly 9% higher than where trading started last Friday. Natural gas prices, meanwhile, spiked by 5% in the U.S. and 45% in Europe after Qatar announced a halt to shipments of liquified natural gas through the Strait of Hormuz, which tapers at its narrowest point to just 20 miles between the shores of Iran and the United Arab Emirates. It’s a sign that the war “isn’t just an oil story,” Heatmap’s Matthew Zeitlin wrote yesterday. Like any good tale, it has some irony: “The one U.S. natural gas export project scheduled to start up soon is, of all things, a QatarEnergy-ExxonMobil joint venture.” Heatmap’s Robinson Meyer further explored the LNG angle with Eurasia Group analyst Gregory Brew on the latest episode of Shift Key.
At least for now, the bombing of Iranian nuclear enrichment sites hasn’t led to any detectable increase in radiation levels in countries bordering Iran, the International Atomic Energy Agency said Monday. That includes the Bushehr nuclear power plant, the Tehran research reactor, and other facilities. “So far, no elevation of radiation levels above the usual background levels has been detected in countries bordering Iran,” Director General Rafael Grossi said in a statement.
Financial giants are once again buying a utility in a bet on electricity growth. A consortium led by BlackRock subsidiary Global Infrastructure Partners and Swedish private equity heavyweight EQT announced a deal Monday to buy utility giant AES Corp. The acquisition was valued at more than $33 billion and is expected to close by early next year at the latest. “AES is a leader in competitive generation,” Bayo Ogunlesi, the chief executive officer of BlackRock’s Global Infrastructure Partners, said in a statement. “At a time in which there is a need for significant investments in new capacity in electricity generation, transmission, and distribution, especially in the United States of America, we look forward to utilizing GIP’s experience in energy infrastructure investing, as well as our operational capabilities to help accelerate AES’ commitment to serve the market needs for affordable, safe and reliable power.” The move comes almost exactly a year after the infrastructure divisions at Blackstone, the world’s largest alternative asset manager, bought the Albuquerque-based utility TXNM Energy in an $11.5 billion gamble on surging power demand.
China’s output of solar power surpassed that of wind for the first time last year as cheap panels flooded the market at home and abroad. The country produced nearly 1.2 million gigawatt-hours of electricity from solar power in 2025, up 40% from a year earlier, according to a Bloomberg analysis of National Bureau of Statistics data published Saturday. Wind generation increased just 13% to more than 1.1 gigawatt-hours. The solar boom comes as Beijing bolsters spending on green industry across the board. China went from spending virtually nothing on fusion energy development to investing more in one year than the entire rest of the world combined, as I have previously reported. To some, China is — despite its continued heavy use of coal — a climate hero, as Heatmap’s Katie Brigham has written.
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Canada and India have a longstanding special friendship on nuclear power. Both countries — two of the juggernauts of the 56-country Commonwealth of Nations — operate fleets that rely heavily on pressurized heavy water reactors, a very different design than the light water reactors that make up the vast majority of the fleets in Europe and the United States. Ottawa helped New Delhi build its first nuclear plants. Now the two countries have renewed their atomic ties in what the BBC called a “landmark” deal Monday. As part of the pact, India signed a nine-year agreement with Canada’s largest uranium miner, Cameco, to supply fuel to New Delhi’s growing fleet of seven nuclear plants. The $1.9 billion deal opens a new market for Canada’s expanding production of uranium ore and gives India, which has long worried about its lack of domestic deposits, a stable supply of fuel.
India, meanwhile, is charging ahead with two new reactors at the Kaiga atomic power station in the southwestern state of Karnataka. The units are set to be IPHWR-700, natively designed pressurized heavy water reactors. Last week, the Nuclear Power Corporation of India poured the first concrete on the new pair of reactors, NucNet reported Monday.
The Spanish refiner Moeve has decided to move forward with an investment into building what Hydrogen Insight called “a scaled-back version” of the first phase of its giant 2-gigawatt Andalusian Green Hydrogen Valley project. Even in a less ambitious form, Reuters pegged the total value of the project at $1.2 billion. Meanwhile in the U.S., as I wrote yesterday, is losing major projects right as big production facilities planned before Trump returned to office come online.
Speaking of building, the LEGO Group is investing another $2.8 million into carbon dioxide removal. The Danish toymaker had already pumped money into carbon-removal projects overseen by Climate Impact Partners and ClimeFi. At this point, LEGO has committed $8.5 million to sucking planet-heating carbon out of the atmosphere, where it circulates for centuries. “As the program expands, it is helping to strengthen our understanding of different approaches and inform future decision-making on how carbon removal may complement our wider climate goals,” Annette Stube, LEGO’s chief sustainability officer, told Carbon Herald.
In this special edition of Shift Key, Rob talks to Eurasia Group’s Gregory Brew about how the U.S.-Israeli-led conflict will reshape global energy markets.
The United States and Israel have launched a devastating new war on Iran. What has happened so far, when could it end, and what could it mean for oil, gas, and the global energy shift?
Rob is joined by Gregory Brew, an analyst with the Eurasia Group’s energy, climate, and resources team focused on the geopolitics of oil and gas. He serves as the group’s country analyst for Iran. He’s also an historian of modern Iran, oil, and U.S. foreign policy, and the author of two books about the subject.
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Here is an excerpt from their conversation:
Robinson Meyer: I think the first place that people’s minds go when you’re talking about Iran, when you’re talking about the Strait of Hormuz, is oil. Why is the Strait of Hormuz particularly important to the global oil market? And then second of all, what have we seen as the initial effects here?
Gregory Brew: So the Strait of Hormuz matters for three reasons. One, it is a very narrow waterway. So it is quite easy, theoretically, to block it. Other waterways — even the Bab el-Mandab and the Red Sea, the Strait of Malacca, other strategic pathways through which large quantities of energy move — are not so easily disrupted as the Strait of Hormuz. That’s reason number one.
Reason number two, Iran. Iran is there. Iran frequently threatens to block the Strait of Hormuz, frequently threatens to close the Strait of Hormuz. It is a hostile actor vis-à-vis the other states in the region. We are now seeing proof of that, given that it is open fire on the GCC in a concerted way. That’s another reason why the Strait of Hormuz gets so much attention as far as the connection between the strait, the strait security and the situation in the global oil market.
The third reason — I guess there are four reasons. The third reason is the volume of energy moving through the strait. It’s close to a fifth of global oil supply. It’s 20 million barrels a day, sometimes a little more. It’s a significant portion of the global LNG supply coming from Qatar has to pass through the Strait of Hormuz. A large quantity of refined products, metal distillates, condensates, fuel oil moves through the strait. So the volume affected by the strait being closed or disrupted or affected in some way is very, very large.
Finally, fourth point, there’s nowhere else to go. You can’t go around the Strait of Hormuz. You have to go through it. Tankers that can’t transit the strait or are blocked from doing so have no other options. There’s no Africa route, as there was with the Red Sea disruption. So for those four reasons, the Strait of Hormuz gets a lot of attention. And it’s why it’s getting attention now. Although, interestingly enough, price of oil has responded, but has not moved so in a significant way, at least per some people’s expectations.
Meyer: Well, the theme of the year in oil so far has been that there’s a glut of oil. Or there’s at least a small glut of oil. We’ve kind of been dealing with that for a long time. And so I wonder if that is in some way — one hesitates to call this good for oil markets, but it is kind of solving an issue for the market. Do you think oil is the most important energy product affected by this war?
Brew: Well, it’s certainly the largest in terms of volume, given how much oil moves through the strait. However, I think this could end up being a gas story as much as an oil story.
You can find a full transcript of the episode here.
Mentioned:
From Heatmap: War With Iran Isn’t Just an Oil Story
From Heatmap: How Trump’s War Could Destabilize the Global Energy Market
This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by …
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Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.
This transcript has been automatically generated.
Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Robinson Meyer:
[1:26] Hi, I’m Robinson Meyer, and you are listening to Shift Key, Heatmap’s podcast about decarbonization and the shift away from fossil fuels. It is Monday, March 2. Over the weekend, the United States and Israel launched a new war on Iran, killing its Supreme Leader and bombing hundreds of targets across the country. The war is a big deal for the United States, for Iran, for the Middle East, and for the global economy. And even though it was preceded by the largest buildup of U.S. military equipment in the region since 2003, it was still, in a way, surprising. There hasn’t really been any effort to sell the war to the American people. It’s still not clear that it was legal or constitutional. And President Trump has been hazy about his goals for the conflict.
Robinson Meyer:
[2:06] For our purposes, though, here at Shift Key, the war is going to have big implications for the world’s energy markets in the short term and the long term. Like all geopolitical shocks, it is going to shape how countries make decisions about energy long after this particular conflict ends. And the longer this conflict goes, the deeper its consequences could be. So for today’s episode of Shift Key, I wanted to get our bearings on this new war and what it could mean. Our guest today is Gregory Brew. He’s an analyst with the Eurasia Group’s energy, climate, and resources team, focusing on the geopolitics of oil and gas. He serves as the group’s country analyst for Iran. And he’s an historian of modern Iran, oil and U.S. foreign policy, as well as the author of two books about the subject. He’s going to walk us through what has happened so far, just how long this conflict could go on and what it will mean for energy. Greg, welcome to Shift Key.
Gregory Brew:
[2:56] Thanks for having me on.
Robinson Meyer:
[2:58] Can you start by giving us a macro picture of what has happened over the past 72 hours at this point?
Gregory Brew:
[3:05] Sure thing.
Gregory Brew:
[3:08] Early Saturday morning local time, so late in the evening on Friday night here in the United States, the U.S. and Israel launched a significant military operation against Iran. In the past 48 hours, the U.S. and Israel have bombed probably more than a thousand targets inside Iran. These are mostly military targets. Iran’s ballistic missiles, elements of its military infrastructure inside the country, its navy, its naval assets close to the Persian Gulf, all have come under significant fire. In addition, Israel has specifically targeted members of Iran’s leadership. Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei is confirmed dead. Other members of the leadership have also been assassinated. There are other members that their fates remain unknown. In response, Iran has fired a large number of missiles and drones at U.S. bases, at Israel. Somewhat surprisingly, however, many of Iran’s missiles and drones are being fired at Gulf Arab states. The UAE has come under intense bombardment. Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, even Oman, which is a state that’s pretty friendly to Iran, and Qatar all have come under attack from Iran’s drones and missiles. The impact to energy so far, Iran kind of informally declared the Strait of Hormuz closed in the first 12 hours of the conflict.
Gregory Brew:
[4:19] This hasn’t really been followed up with any official action. There haven’t really been many tanker attacks by Iran, but tanker traffic through the strait has come to an almost complete halt. Oil tankers, LNG tankers, tankers carrying refined products, most of them have kind of frozen in place as they await for some clarity as to the situation and as to the risk. Oil prices rose sharply. Sunday night when markets opened, the price of oil went up from about $73 a barrel to about $80 a barrel. Then it fell slightly. It’s at around $78, $79 now. Equally important, I think natural gas prices have increased sharply in various regional markets. The price of natural gas in Europe shot up dramatically today on news that Qatar was going to be shutting off gas production. That’s how the energy story has kind of played out. I should note at the time we’re recording, the war is still ongoing. U.S. and Israel still bombing Iran. Iran is still firing back. Doesn’t look to be concluding anytime soon.
Robinson Meyer:
[5:13] I want to get to the energy picture in a second, but let’s talk about what has happened as far as we can tell from the places that have been bombed from the kind of targets that have been chosen by the U.S. and Israel. Do we have a sense of what their goals are here?
Gregory Brew:
[5:28] We have a sense. I’ll say that. The president has made a number of addresses to the nation where he frames this operation in two ways. One, this is the U.S. and Israel using military power to significantly reduce the threat that Iran poses to U.S. interests, to U.S. bases, and to U.S. allies. In the run-up to this war, there was a lot of attention being paid to Iran’s nuclear program. That program was mostly destroyed in the war of last June, although elements of it remain. However, there were quite a few comments from U.S. officials and a lot being said in private, which suggested that the key U.S. and Israeli concern was not Iran’s nuclear program, but its stockpile of ballistic missiles. Iran is in kind of an interesting state as far as its military. It’s been under sanction for so long. Its ability to build up a conventional
Gregory Brew:
[6:16] military has been pretty curtailed. Like it doesn’t have advanced jet fighters. It doesn’t have a lot of advanced sophisticated military hardware. Where its military is kind of inferior as far as the region is concerned. What it does have, what it’s spent a lot of money, a lot of time and a lot of resources on, is developing a large number of advanced ballistic missiles. And so that’s been, I would say, the single largest focus of the operation. Israel and the U.S. taking aim at Iran’s missiles, trying to blow them up, trying to blow up the factories where these missiles are made, the stockpiles where the missiles are kept, the launchers that Iran uses. That’s the sort of military goal. Trump has been talking about regime change.
Gregory Brew:
[6:53] But the way he’s been framing it is interesting. He says that the U.S. supports regime change in Iran, but that it has to come through the actions of the Iranian people, that the U.S. won’t put boots on the ground, that there’s not going to be a ground invasion of Iran. So I think right now, I think the goal for the U.S. is somewhat open ended. I think they’re going to continue to bomb Iran so long as they see means to do so to keep degrading it to keep damaging it. If that ends with a new regime, great. But at the end of the day, so long as Iran is significantly weakened. And as so long as the threat that Iran poses to the U.S. and the region and to Israel has been significantly reduced, I think that’s enough of a win for at least the president to claim victory.
Robinson Meyer:
[7:30] What would that mean for Iran to be as a state that would have no more military, that basically lost its entire elite and senior leadership structure and has faced these large protests? Like, do we have any sense of what this would mean for the Iranian people?
Gregory Brew:
[7:49] Well, for the Iranian people, nothing good in the short term. Any kind of war puts immense strain on a country, on a people, on a society. We saw that in the war of June of last year. I talked to people in Iran quite frequently. And apart from the political sense, the sense of anger at the regime, the discontent that’s widespread at this point, there was a lot of trauma from the experience of being bombed for two weeks. And right now they’re being bombed not only by Israel, but by the global superpower, the United States. And it’s a campaign of bombing that doesn’t appear to be coming to an end anytime soon. This is going to do additional damage to Iran’s economy.
Gregory Brew:
[8:26] As far as the regime is concerned, there were plans that had been put in place even last June during the war with Israel to manage in the event of Khamenei’s sudden death by decapitation or assassination strike. So his death has not been a body blow to the regime leadership. There’s already a process that’s in motion to pick a new supreme leader. They’re likely to pick one in the coming days, they appear to be doing so quite quickly. That is their way of signaling that, hey, nothing’s going to change from this, right? Regime’s not going anywhere, the Islamic Republic will continue to stand tall. If Trump sees victory in blowing up most of Iran’s military, the Islamic Republic will see victory in surviving that conflict. So long as they emerge with their position more or less intact, which they’re likely to do. What we saw in January was a regime that has no compunction about using lethal force against its own people. The security forces are still in their control. The police are still in their control. The army hasn’t revolted. The leadership hasn’t cracked. So long as that remains the case, I think this war ends with the Islamic Republic still standing,
Gregory Brew:
[9:26] more or less, but in heavily battered form.
Robinson Meyer:
[9:29] Do we have any sense of how this ends on the U.S. side?
Gregory Brew:
[9:34] I think this ends when Trump decides it ends. Right now, there have been some recent comments from the president that sound defiant, that sound resistant to bringing the war to an end. I would hesitate to say, however, whether this administration wants this war to go on for more than a few weeks, right? A longer war keeps oil prices high. A longer war threatens further damage to the U.S. position in the region. Iranian missiles and drones are getting through. They are causing damage, not only to the U.S. bases, but to GCC states. And there’s only so long that the Saudis, the Emiratis, the Qataris are going to want to continue to be hit by Iranian drones. They’re going to want this war to end fairly quickly. As for Trump, if you look at past experience, the wars that he’s been able to deliver, the military interventions that he’s carried out and been able to frame as wins have been short. They’ve been decisive. They haven’t turned into prolonged conflicts. And I think that’s where his head is going to be, try to pull a victory out of something that lasts only a week or two. But right now, he’s signaling that he’s willing to go the distance. Part of that is in response to the Iranians, because the Iranians are treating this like a battle of wills. We can go longer than you, we can keep shooting, we can take the hit. But so long as we continue to cause damage and pain to you, it’s going to be in your interest to wrap this up sooner rather than later.
Robinson Meyer:
[10:46] It’s interesting because there’s two different Trumpian instincts here, or two different Trumpian tendencies. The first is to basically push through with a policy until he reverses it. And a longtime political strength of Trump’s has been that he can reverse any policy at the drop of a hat. And there’s no embarrassment, there’s no shame, that policy is over, and we move on.
Robinson Meyer:
[11:12] And the second, the second tendency here is that, as you were saying, he hasn’t been afraid to break norms, right? And we saw this at the end of his first term with the assassination of Soleimani in Iraq. We saw this term with the operation of Venezuela. And in Venezuela, there was a sense that, oh, my gosh, is the U.S. Now involved in a Latin American country? Are we involved in a process of regime change? And it turned out no, because seemingly they had already back-channeled with Delcy Rodriguez and she was going to be basically a U.S. puppet in the new kind of quasi-regime that emerged. But here it doesn’t seem like there is either a – if they had a goal, they’ve already accomplished it, which is decapitating the Supreme Leader. And if they had a kind of a back channeled puppet leader to put in charge of the country, Trump actually said yesterday that their second or third choices to lead the country had been killed in these military strikes. And so he didn’t have like a candidate. Now, of course, he wouldn’t reveal this, but he didn’t have some kind of candidate ready to go to take over Iran, who could then deal with the U.S. and be addressed to by the U.S.
Gregory Brew:
[12:23] Yeah, so I think the president is putting out a lot of different narratives around this, as far as what the U.S. goal is, whether it is meant to collapse the regime. I mean, he’s been saying things like, the IRGC will surrender, they’ll hand their weapons over to the people, which is a really nice idea. But it’s very difficult to see that happening in reality. It’s very difficult to see how that would happen. A Venezuela style transition is somewhat more plausible, or it could have been somewhat more plausible. But only really in a scenario where the U.S. and Israel deescalate following the assassination of Khamenei and they’re not doing that. They’re continuing to bomb Iran. They’re maintaining the pressure. Whether the United States is communicating with members of the Iranian leadership is beyond me. I couldn’t speculate as to that. I do see it as being plausible that they’re communicating to the Iranians, if you want this to stop, give up X, Y, and Z. We’ll keep doing this unless you surrender, unless you capitulate. And the Iranians are going to have a very strong sense to not do that. Expecting them to surrender misreads the Iranians, both in terms of their position, but also in terms of their ideology and their characteristics. They’re not going to back down.
Robinson Meyer:
[13:26] Can you walk us through some scenarios here? So what would a 10-day, I think there’s been some reference from the president, from others, that this could be a 10-day campaign. There’s been other timeframes that are thrown around. We’re going to get to them. But what would a 10-day campaign here look like, given that I guess we’re already on day three?
Gregory Brew:
[13:45] Yeah, we’re on day three. So the opening salvos included the most significant targets in Iran’s military. Its navy was heavily targeted in the opening days of the strikes. Obviously, Khamenei was hit first. I think he may very well have been the first target. There’s been some reporting to suggest that the Israelis decided to move forward the timeline of strikes because they saw an opportunity to strike at Khamenei, who is generally a fairly elusive figure. He spends a lot of time in secure locations. In this instance, he was at his residence. It was daylight, he was exposed, and they decided to go. This expanding over the next week, you know, the Americans, the Israelis could continue to strike at missile facilities, a lot of these facilities are hardened, they could keep the fight going so that they can get the Iranians to deploy their missiles so that the missiles can be destroyed in the air or on the ground. I think some of this will start to look a little bit like a war of attrition. By the end of the week, that’s probably how the Iranians are thinking about it. They’re shifting or likely will shift from firing lots of missiles to firing lots of drones, which they can do so more easily.
Gregory Brew:
[14:41] They have a lot more of them. They have somewhere in the realm or had somewhere in the realm of 2,000 short range and 2,000 medium range ballistic missiles when the war began, they have thousands of drones, and they can keep firing them in large numbers. So if the Iranian goal is to impose pain and cost to the U.S. to force them to deescalate, then the Iranians will keep shooting at GCC targets at U.S. bases and at Israel, so long as they can. For the Americans after 10 days, they probably will have done as much damage as they could do to Iran’s capabilities. Israel has also targeted internal security forces, police, the Basij paramilitaries that the regime uses to put down dissent. Again, I don’t know if the operation is actually aiming at regime change, but hitting targets like this will undermine the regime, will weaken its control on Iran’s internal security, will cause Iran to exit this conflict in a weakened state. That serves Israel’s interests, even if it doesn’t end up with the regime collapsing. I would expect more strikes like those in the days to come.
Robinson Meyer:
[15:36] Last question, and then we’ll move to energy, which is ostensibly the topic we’re talking about. What would a five-week campaign look like? Briefly, because that’s the other time frame I think we’ve heard from the president.
Gregory Brew:
[15:49] Yeah. I mean, a campaign could last five weeks. I don’t know if it maintains the same level of intensity because they will start to run low on targets. A five week campaign would likely involve more strikes on internal security forces, on leadership, on the apparatus of the regime. I think a five week campaign would be more geared around making the Islamic Republic’s position inside Iran untenable, either creating the environment for protests, creating the environment for internal fracturing, so that you get some kind of shift in the leadership towards individuals who are willing to capitulate, who are willing to come to terms with the United States. That’s, I think, what a five-week campaign would look like. But I also think a five-week campaign wouldn’t be carried on with the same level of intensity. The U.S. would continue strikes, probably at a lower rate. It would look, again, a little bit more like a war of attrition with the Iranians continuing to shoot back as far as they are able. The problem with a five-week campaign for me is that the political costs to Trump mount the longer this war continues, right? It keeps oil prices high, keeps energy prices high, the risk of U.S. casualties, the risk of damage. The longer he goes without pulling a win out of this, I think the weaker he looks.
Robinson Meyer:
[18:28] Something I’ve been thinking about is that the U.S. posture during this war, which is kind of all tactics, no strategy, is kind of derived from Israeli military approaches. But there was no effort to build up a constituency in the U.S. for this war. There’s no sense of existential risk like there is in Israel, around Iran, in the U.S., around Iran. And so ... to some degree, there are Israeli tactics and there is an Israeli posture that’s being borrowed for U.S. operations in this conflict. But there’s none of the domestic politics that makes that possible in the U.S.
Gregory Brew:
[19:07] Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Iran matters a great deal more to Israel than Iran matters to the United States, insofar as Iran matters to the United States. I do think, though, it needs to be remembered that the U.S. is committed to maintaining its position in military hegemony in the Middle East. And Iran is a threat to that position. It’s a threat to U.S. bases in the region. It’s a threat to U.S. partners in the Gulf. It’s obviously a threat to Israel. And Israel is a close U.S. ally. This is a relationship that’s come under political pressure lately. But as far as strategic cooperation, as far as the alignment of interests,
Gregory Brew:
[19:40] when Israel and the United States look at the region, they tend to have very, very similar views. And a key aspect of that view is Iran is a threat. So as far as the approach to Iran using military force, there has been a shift in the last two years. Some of that is Iran’s own doing. Iran chose to escalate in April of 2024 when it launched hundreds of missiles and drones at Israel for the first time ever. It was signaling that it was now willing to take direct military action against Israel. Israel responded by taking direct military action against Iran, and it has not gone well for the Iranians. In that sense, Trump is going further than any U.S. president has in the past. And he is following Israel’s lead to some extent. But I would hesitate to draw too much to say that there’s too much space between the Israeli and American positions as far as viewing Iran, viewing the region strategically. But certainly politically, no one in the country, no one in the U.S. is telling Trump a war with Iran is a national priority. A war with Iran is how you’re going to get your poll numbers up. A war with Iran is how we’re going to win the midterms. That does put constraints on how long the U.S. can continue this war and on how Trump is going to see any kind of upside from it.
Robinson Meyer:
[20:46] Nor has Trump tried to convince his coalition that a war with Iran is a national priority. But let’s talk about energy. I think the first place that people’s minds go when you’re talking about Iran, when you’re talking about the Strait of Hormuz, is oil. Why is the Strait of Hormuz particularly important to the global oil market? And then second of all, like what have we seen as the initial effects here?
Gregory Brew:
[21:09] So the Strait of Hormuz matters for three reasons. One, it is a very narrow waterway. So it is quite easy, theoretically, to block it.
Gregory Brew:
[21:19] Other waterways, even the Bab el-Mandab and the Red Sea, the Strait of Malacca, other strategic pathways through which large quantities of energy move are not so easily disrupted as the Strait of Hormuz. That’s reason number one. Reason number two, Iran. Iran is there. Iran frequently threatens to block the Strait of Hormuz, frequently threatens to close the Strait of Hormuz. It is a hostile actor vis-à-vis the other states in the region. We are now seeing proof of that, given that it is open fire on the GCC in a concerted way. That’s another reason why the Strait of Hormuz gets so much attention as far as the connection between the strait, the strait security and the situation in the global oil market. The third reason, I guess there are four reasons. The third reason is the volume of energy moving through the strait. It’s close to a fifth of global oil supply. It’s 20 million barrels a day, sometimes a little more. It’s a significant portion of the global LNG supply coming from Qatar has to pass through the Strait of Hormuz. A large quantity of refined products, metal distillates, condensates, fuel oil moves through the strait. So the volume affected by the strait being closed or disrupted or affected in some way is very, very large. Finally, fourth point, there’s nowhere else to go. You can’t go around the Strait of Hormuz. You have to go through it.
Gregory Brew:
[22:29] Tankers that can’t transit the strait or are blocked from doing so have no other options. There’s no Africa route as there was with the Red Sea disruption. So for those four reasons, the Strait of Hormuz gets a lot of attention. And it’s why it’s getting attention now. Although, interestingly enough, price of oil has responded, but has not moved so in a significant way, at least per some people’s expectations.
Robinson Meyer:
[22:51] Well, the theme of the year in oil so far has been that there’s a glut of oil. Or there’s at least a small glut of oil. We’ve kind of been dealing with that for a long time. And so I wonder if that is in some ways, one hesitates to call this good for oil markets, but it is kind of solving an issue for the market. Do you think oil is the most important energy product affected by this war?
Gregory Brew:
[23:15] Well, it’s certainly the largest in terms of volume, given how much oil moves through the strait. However, I think this could end up being a gas story as much as an oil story for two reasons. One, gas has already been physically affected. Just this morning, Qatar LNG put out a notice saying that it was halting production due to Iranian attacks on its facilities. Theoretically, this means that all Qatari LNG exports will be halted. And Qatar is among the top three global LNG producers. So if that happens, global LNG supply will be significantly constrained.
Gregory Brew:
[23:45] So far, there hasn’t been any significant constraints to oil supply. Tankers have paused in transiting the Strait of Hormuz, but physical disruptions haven’t yet occurred. The second reason is the state of the global gas market is tighter than the state of the global oil market. Oil is in a slight imbalance in supply versus demand. That’s been what has been keeping prices relatively low over the last six months, geopolitics notwithstanding. By comparison, gas inventories in Europe and Northeast Asia are fairly low as these countries are coming out of the winter months. So the effect of a Qatar shutoff or the effect of a significant disruption in LNG traffic through the strait, even if it is only short, could end up having fairly significant effect. Finally, prices, gas prices have shot up today much higher relative than to the increase in oil prices. So already the gas market is responding in a more significant way than the oil market has.
Robinson Meyer:
[24:34] Who will feel the effect of tighter and higher LNG markets and prices? I mean, is this primarily a Japan and Europe story? Is this something where in the U.S., I mean, we explored a lot of LNG, but would we expect those LNG prices to translate back into domestic gas prices?
Gregory Brew:
[24:50] I think gas prices in the U.S. are likely to remain fairly low. They may increase slightly as the average LNG price globally increases. But I think this will affect Europe, particularly as their inventories are somewhat lower than major Northeast Asia importers like Japan and South Korea. The Europeans are still getting over the long effects of the war in Ukraine, moving away from dependence on Russian gas. They’ve had to depend on LNG to a more considerable degree. So a disruption on this scale, if it proves lasting, could be quite bad for the affordability of energy in Europe. Europe’s not going to run out of gas, but it will be forced to pay more money for it. Finally, there could be a dynamic that we saw in 2022, where all other markets that can’t compete with the high prices that Europe is demanding feel the effects. Markets like Southeast Asia or South Asia will see perhaps less access to LNG if more cargos are being diverted to Europe to take advantage of the very healthy
Gregory Brew:
[25:41] arbitrage opportunities between Europe gas prices and those in the United States.
Robinson Meyer:
[25:45] What do you think we learned from the 2022 post-Ukraine energy shock that might be applied now? Like what emerged then that could affect what we’re about to see?
Gregory Brew:
[25:56] I think if this conflict does end up disrupting LNG exports in a significant way, where the disruption lasts more than a few days, where the prices rise and remain high, I think it will offer up a similar lesson to the war in 2022, which is that LNG can be very volatile. It can be very reliable, but during periods of intense geopolitical conflict with supplies like Qatar being affected by conflict, affected by security in the region, that ends up hitting consumers because it ends up, they end up having to shoulder much higher prices. They end up having to shoulder the burden of insecure energy. One of the arguments made against LNG over the last couple of years is that while it is, while it makes a lot of sense, the economics make a lot of sense. If it’s continually exposed to these kinds of volatile spikes, if geopolitics keeps the average price of gas much higher than that of coal or renewables, then ultimately LNG can’t compete with those alternative sources of supply. Even if the economics make sense, the geopolitics might not.
Robinson Meyer:
[26:54] Well, and this is what I was thinking. From some climate folks, I think there’s been a turn after this conflict, as there is after many conflicts, to say, look, this is why renewables are so important, because they don’t experience this price volatility in the same way that LNG does. The issue is coal also doesn’t really experience this price volatility. And frankly, many, many countries around the world, particularly those that suffer when LNG prices go up in sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia, do actually have ample coal resources. And if they need to, they’ll learn from the Chinese example, as much as building solar and batteries is important, so is building a big coal fleet because you always have security of supply with coal.
Gregory Brew:
[27:35] Absolutely.
Robinson Meyer:
[27:36] Gregory Brew, thank you so much for joining us on Shift Key.
Gregory Brew:
[27:39] Thanks for having me back.
Robinson Meyer:
[27:42] Thanks so much for listening to this emergency episode of Shift Key. We’ll be continuing to cover the conflict at Heatmap News. That’s heatmap.news. Until then, Shift Key is a production of Heatmap News. Our editors are Jillian Goodman and Nico Lauricella. Multimedia editing and audio engineering is by Jacob Lambert and by Nick Woodbury. Our music is by Adam Kromelow. Thanks so much for listening and see you soon.