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With the ongoing disaster approaching its second week, here’s where things stand.

A week ago, forecasters in Southern California warned residents of Los Angeles that conditions would be dry, windy, and conducive to wildfires. How bad things have gotten, though, has taken everyone by surprise. As of Monday morning, almost 40,000 acres of Los Angeles County have burned in six separate fires, the biggest of which, Palisades and Eaton, have yet to be fully contained. The latest red flag warning, indicating fire weather, won’t expire until Wednesday.
Many have questions about how the second-biggest city in the country is facing such unbelievable devastation (some of these questions, perhaps, being more politically motivated than others). Below, we’ve tried to collect as many answers as possible — including a bit of good news about what lies ahead.
A second Santa Ana wind event is due to set in Monday afternoon. “We’re expecting moderate Santa Ana winds over the next few days, generally in the 20 to 30 [mile per hour] range, gusting to 50, across the mountains and through the canyons,” Eric Drewitz, a meteorologist with the Forest Service, told me on Sunday. Drewitz noted that the winds will be less severe than last week’s, when the fires flared up, but he also anticipates they’ll be “more easterly,” which could blow the fires into new areas. A new red flag warning has been issued through Wednesday, signaling increased fire potential due to low humidity and high winds for several days yet.
If firefighters can prevent new flare-ups and hold back the fires through that wind event, they might be in good shape. By Friday of this week, “it looks like we could have some moderate onshore flow,” Drewitz said, when wet ocean air blows inland, which would help “build back the marine layer” and increase the relative humidity in the region, decreasing the chances of more fires. Information about the Santa Anas at that time is still uncertain — the models have been changing, and the wind is tricky to predict the strength of so far out — but an increase in humidity will at least offer some relief for the battered Ventura and Orange Counties.
The Palisades Fire, the biggest in L.A., ripped through the hilly and affluent area between Santa Monica and Malibu, including the Pacific Palisades neighborhood, the second-most expensive zip code in Los Angeles and home to many celebrities. Structures in Big Rock, a neighborhood in Malibu, have also burned. The fire has also encroached on the I-405 and the Getty Villa, and destroyed at least two homes in Mandeville Canyon, a neighborhood of multimillion-dollar homes. Students at nearby University of California, Los Angeles, were told on Friday to prepare for a possible evacuation.
The Eaton Fire, the second biggest blaze in the area, has killed 16 people in Altadena, a neighborhood near Pasadena, according to the Los Angeles Times, making it one of the deadliest fires in the modern history of California.
The 1,000-acre Kenneth fire is 100% contained but still burning near Calabasas and the gated community of Hidden Hills. The Hurst Fire has burned nearly 800 acres and is 89% contained and is still burning near Sylmar, the northernmost neighborhood in L.A. Though there are no evacuation notices for either the Kenneth or the Hurst fires, residents in the L.A. area should monitor the current conditions as the situation continues to be fluid and develop.
The 43-acre Sunset Fire, which triggered evacuations last week in Hollywood and Hollywood Hills, burned no homes and is 100% contained.
The Lidia Fire, which ignited in a remote area south of Acton, California, on Wednesday afternoon, burned 350 acres of brush and is 100% contained.
It can take years to determine the cause of a fire, and investigations typically don’t begin until after the fire is under control and the area is safe to reenter, Edward Nordskog, a retired fire investigator from the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department, told Heatmap’s Emily Pontecorvo. He also noted, however, that urban fires are typically easier to pinpoint the cause of than wildland fires due to the availability of witnesses and surveillance footage.
The vast majority of wildfires, 85%, are caused by humans. So far, investigators have ruled out lightning — another common fire-starter — because there were no electrical storms in the area when the fires started. In the case of the Palisades Fire, there were no power lines in the area of the ignition, though investigators are now looking into an electrical transmission tower in Eaton Canyon as the possible cause of the deadly fire in Altadena. There have been rumors that arsonists started the fires, but investigators say that scenario is also pretty unlikely due to the spread of the fires and how remote the ignition areas are.
Officially, 24 people have died, but that tally is likely to rise. California Governor Gavin Newsom said Sunday that he expects “a lot more” deaths will be added to the total in the coming days as search efforts continue.
Incoming President Donald Trump slammed the response to the L.A. fires in a Truth Social post on Sunday morning: “This is one of the worst catastrophes in the history of our Country,” he wrote. “They just can’t put out the fires. What’s wrong with them?”
Though there is much blame going around — not all of it founded in reality — the challenges facing firefighters are immense. Last week, because of strong Santa Ana winds, fire crews could not drop suppressants like water or chemical retardant on the initial blazes. (In strong winds, water and retardant will blow away before they reach the flames on the ground.)
Fighting a fire in an urban or suburban area is also different from fighting one in a remote, wild area. In a true wildfire, crews don’t use much water; firefighters typically contain the blazes by creating breaks — areas cleared of vegetation that starve a fire of fuel and keep it from spreading. In an urban or suburban event, however, firefighters can’t simply hack through a neighborhood, and typically have to use water to fight structure fires. Their priority also shifts from stopping the fire to evacuating and saving people, which means putting out the fire itself has to wait.
What’s more, the L.A. area faced dangerous fire weather going into last week — with wind gusts up to 100 miles per hour and dry air — and the persistence of the Santa Ana winds during firefighting operations through the weekend made it extremely difficult for emergency managers to gain a foothold.
Trump and others have criticized Los Angeles for being unprepared for the fires, given reports that some fire hydrants ran dry or had low pressure during operations in Pacific Palisades. According to the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, about 20% of hydrants were affected, mostly at higher elevations.
The problem isn’t a lack of preparation, however. It’s that the L.A. wildfires are so large and widespread, the county’s preparations were quickly overwhelmed. “We’re fighting a wildfire with urban water systems, and that is really challenging,” Los Angeles Department of Water and Power CEO Janisse Quiñones said in a news conference last week. When houses burn down, water mains can break open. Civilians also put a strain on the system when they use hoses or sprinkler systems to try to protect their homes.
On Sunday, Judy Chu, the Democratic lawmaker representing Altadena, confirmed that fire officials had told her there was enough water to continue the battle in the days ahead. “I believe that we're in a good place right now,” she told reporters. Newsom, meanwhile, has responded to criticism over the water failure by ordering an investigation into the weak or dry hydrants.
So-called “super soaker” planes have had no problem with water access; they’re scooping directly from the ocean.
Yes. Although aerial support was grounded in the early stages of the wildfires due to severe Santa Ana winds, flights resumed during lulls in the storms last week.
There is a misconception, though, that water and retardant drops “put out” fires; they don’t. Instead, aerial support suppresses a fire so crews can get in close and use traditional methods, like cutting a fire break or spraying water. “All that up in the air, all that’s doing is allowing the firefighters [on the ground] a chance to get in,” Bobbie Scopa, a veteran firefighter and author of the memoir Both Sides of the Fire Line, told me last week.
With winds expected to pick up early this week, aerial firefighting operations may be grounded again. “If you have erratic, unpredictable winds to where you’ve got a gust spread of like 20 to 30 knots,” i.e. 23 to 35 miles per hour, “that becomes dangerous,” Dan Reese, a veteran firefighter and the founder and president of the International Wildfire Consulting Group, told me on Friday.
Because of the direction of the Santa Ana winds, wildfire smoke should mostly blow out to sea. But as winds shift, unhealthy air can blow into populated areas, affecting the health of residents.
Wildfire smoke is unhealthy, period, but urban and suburban smoke like that from the L.A. fires can be particularly detrimental. It’s not just trees and brush immolating in an urban fire, it’s also cars, and batteries, and gas tanks, and plastics, and insulation, and other nasty, chemical-filled things catching fire and sending fumes into the air. PM2.5, the inhalable particulates from wildfire smoke, contributes to thousands of excess deaths annually in the U.S.
You can read Heatmap’s guide to staying safe during extreme smoke events here.
“The bad news is, I’m not seeing any rain chances,” Drewitz, the Forest Service meteorologist, told me on Sunday. Though the marine layer will bring wetter air to the Los Angeles area on Friday, his models showed it’ll be unlikely to form precipitation.
Though some forecasters have signaled potential rain at the end of next week, the general consensus is that the odds for that are low, and that any rain there may be will be too light or short-lived to contribute meaningfully to extinguishing the fires.
The chaparral shrublands around Los Angeles are supposed to burn every 30 to 130 years. “There are high concentrations of terpenes — very flammable oils — in that vegetation; it’s made to burn,” Scopa, the veteran firefighter, told me.
What isn’t normal, though, is the amount of rain Los Angeles got ahead of this past spring — 52.46 inches in the preceding two years, the wettest period in the city’s history since the late 1800s — which was followed by a blisteringly hot summer and a delayed start to this year’s rainy season. Since October, parts of Southern California have received just 10% of their normal rainfall
This “weather whiplash” is caused by a warmer atmosphere, which means that plants will grow explosively due to the influx of rain and then dry out when the drought returns, leaving lots of dry fuels ready and waiting for a spark. “This is really, I would argue, a signature of climate change that is going to be experienced almost everywhere people actually live on Earth,” Daniel Swain, a climate scientist at the University of California, Los Angeles, who authored a new study on the pattern, told The Washington Post.
We know less about how climate change may affect the Santa Anas, though experts have some theories.
At least 12,000 structures have burned so far in the fires, which is already exacerbating the strain on the Los Angeles housing market — one of the country’s tightest even before the fires — as thousands of displaced people look for new places to live. “Dozens and dozens of people are going after the same properties,” one real estate agent told the Los Angeles Times. The city has reminded businesses that price gouging — including raising rental prices more than 10% — during an emergency is against the law.
Los Angeles had a shortage of about 370,000 homes before the fires, and between 2021 and 2023, the county added fewer than 30,000 new units per year. Recovery grants and federal aid can lag, and it often takes more than two years for even the first Housing and Urban Development Disaster Recovery Grants’ expenditures to go out.
My colleague Matthew Zeitlin wrote for Heatmap that the economic impact of the Los Angeles fire is already much higher than that of other fires, such as the 2018 Camp fire, partly because of the value of the Pacific Palisades real estate.
The wildfires may “deal a devastating blow to [California’s] fragile home insurance market,” Heatmap’s Matthew Zeitlin wrote last week. In recent years, home insurers have left California or declined to write new policies, at least partially due to the increased risk of wildfires in the state.
Depending on the extent of the damage from the fires, the coffers of California’s FAIR Plan — which insures homeowners who can’t get insurance otherwise, including many in Pacific Palisades and Altadena — could empty, causing it to seek money from insurers, according to the state’s regulations. As Zeitlin writes, “This would mean that Californians who were able to buy private insurance — because they don’t live in a region of the state that insurers have abandoned — could be on the hook for massive wildfire losses.”
First and foremost, sign up for all relevant emergency alerts. Make sure to turn on the sound on your phone and keep it near you in case of a change in conditions. Pack a “go bag” with essentials and consider filling your gas tank now so that you can evacuate at a moment’s notice if needed. Read our guide on what to do if you get a pre-evacuation or an evacuation notice ahead of time so that you’re not scrambling for information if you get an alert.
The free Watch Duty app has become a go-to resource for people affected by the fires, including friends and family of Angelenos who may themselves be thousands of miles away. The app provides information on fire perimeters, evacuation notices, and power outages. Its employees pull information directly from emergency responders’ radio broadcasts and sometimes beat official sources to disseminating it. If you need an endorsement: Emergency responders rely on the app, too.
There are many scams in the wake of disasters as crooks look to take advantage of desperate people — and those who want to help them. To play it safe, you can use a hub like the one established by GoFundMe, which is actively vetting campaigns related to the L.A. fires. If you’re looking to volunteer your time, make a donation of clothing or food, or if you’re able to foster animals the fire has displaced, you can use this handy database from the Mutual Aid Network L.A. There are also many national organizations, such as the Red Cross, that you can connect with if you want to help.
The City of Los Angeles and the Los Angeles Fire Department have asked that do-gooders not bring donations directly to fire stations or shelters; such actions can interfere with emergency operations. Their website provides more information about how you can help — productively — on their website.
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Current conditions: Debris left behind by Halley’s Comet is set to create a meteor shower across the sky tonight into tomorrow morning • Super Typhoon Champi is roaring just east of the Philippines’ most populous island, Luzon, with winds of up to 133 miles per hour • The heat wave roasting East Africa is driving temperatures in the Sudanese capital of Khartoum past 106 degrees Fahrenheit.
El Niño is giving us a taste of what the warming we have locked in as a species will feel like. Just look at the extreme weather that raged this summer in the form of storms and heat waves as the cyclical weather pattern drove up temperature averages past 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels. That’s the maximum warming benchmark set in the 2015 Paris Agreement, later reinforced in a landmark 2018 United Nations report. Now the latest data from the UN Environment Programme shows that we’re well on our way to making this year’s El Niño the new norm. A report released Wednesday suggests the current trajectory of emissions means the “lowest possible” warming scenario would lead to global temperatures peaking at about 1.7 degrees to 1.8 degrees by midcentury before potentially returning to 1.5 degrees by 2100. To put the world on that pathway, global emissions would need to fall by 18% in the next three years relative to 2025 levels. Then 45% by 2035. Then another 69% by 2040.
The world is a long way from making that possible. If every country fully implements its promised emissions cuts, greenhouse gas output would fall by just 5% to 8% by 2030, and from 11% to 15% by 2035. “Overshoot is not surrender,” UN Secretary-General António Guterres said in a statement. “We can still keep it as small and as short as possible — and bring temperatures back below 1.5 degrees by the end of the century.”
In an era when the atomic power industry is rife with startups promising to build novel kinds of reactors, The Nuclear Company stands out as the lone firm simply trying to restore America’s capacity to build the machines the country already has. The startup formed around the simple concept of building more large-scale reactors with settled designs — essentially leaving only one option, the Westinghouse AP1000. CEO Jonathan Webb, who appeared last month on our Shift Key podcast, assembled a team that included many managers from the successful construction of the nation’s first two AP1000s at Southern Company’s Plant Vogtle. The company forged a partnership with Westinghouse’s majority owner, Brookfield, in a bid to complete the AP1000 project South Carolina abandoned nearly a decade ago at the V.C. Summer plant. Now The Nuclear Company has finally unveiled its first new major project: Building six reactors on a greenfield site in Kentucky. It’s the exact sort of project that vaulted China to the front of the modern nuclear race and made Beijing’s reverse-engineered AP1000 one of the cheapest reactors in the world to build. By constructing six at one time, the cost of each reactor is expected to get cheaper and more efficient, while still maintaining the cost advantage that nuclear builders traditionally seize from larger units that generate more power. Dubbed “Prosperity One,” the project will ultimately produce 6.6 gigawatts of electricity, making it the largest and most powerful nuclear station in the country and the nation’s second-highest capacity electrical plant after the Grand Coulee Dam. The Nuclear Company expects to begin construction in 2028. “For generations, communities along the Ohio River have formed America’s industrial backbone,” Joe Klecha, The Nuclear Company’s chief nuclear officer who helped oversee construction of the Vogtle reactors, said in a statement. “We are proud to partner with the community to apply our team’s collective experience to deliver lasting jobs, a stronger tax base, and reliable power for Kentucky.”
Top officials from the administrations of presidents George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, and Joe Biden have called on Congress to pass the bipartisan permitting reform bill. In an open letter to the leaders of the House of Representatives and the Senate, 19 former officials said “alleviating our permitting bottlenecks can help ensure that America retains its competitive edge” and called the Bipartisan American Affordability and Jobs Act, or BAAJA, “the most significant bipartisan legislative effort that Congress has undertaken in decades to tackle these challenges.” The signatories include former Treasury chiefs Janet Yellen, Steven Mnuchin, Timothy Geithner, and Hank Paulson; economic advisors Jason Furman, Glenn Hubbard, and Laura D’Andrea Tyson; and former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta.
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A federal judge in Mississippi struck down an attempt by the Trump administration to dismiss a lawsuit by a top civil rights group accusing Elon Musk’s xAI of violating environmental laws to power one of its biggest data centers. On Tuesday, Reuters reported that U.S. District Judge Debra Brown told the Environmental Protection Agency that it lacked the authority to unilaterally toss out the lawsuit from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, which alleges that xAI and its subsidiary were violating federal law and state regulations by building and operating a gas-fired power plant in Southaven, Mississippi, without the required air permits.
Meanwhile, in Wyoming, the data center developer Tallgrass is looking to win over skeptical locals as it seeks to build a data center complex in the state. The Colorado-based company said it would launch a $105 million conservation and stewardship fund for Yellowstone National Park, in what WyoFile called the “largest single private gift in the agency’s history.” With the cost of good community relations growing so high, it’s no wonder data centers are looking to the final frontier to continue the AI buildout. On Tuesday, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration partnered with Cowboy Space Corporation, which is aiming to put data centers into orbit. As my colleague Katie Brigham wrote, “in space, no one can oppose your data center.”
The Department of Energy has been spending a lot of money on electricity infrastructure. Barely a week after the agency pumped $581 million into the grid spanning eight states in the Tennessee Valley Authority’s territory, the Energy Department has announced $967 million for a state and tribal grid resilience program. In a statement, Katie Jereza, the assistant secretary of energy for the Office of Electricity, said “a strong and dependable grid is the backbone of American economic prosperity.”

Putting aside the fact that a bird as majestic as the vulture deserves a better connotation, it’s impossible not to use the scavenger as a metaphor for the U.S. fracking companies circling Vaca Muerta. Literally Spanish for “dead cow,” the shale formation in northern Patagonia is Argentina’s best hope of reviving its oil and gas industry. The first major U.S. company to show up in the patch was the Houston-based driller Patterson-UTI, which leased two rigs to Argentina’s YPF. In April, Halliburton arrived following a multibillion-dollar deal to provide oilfield services. Now West Virginia-based Nacelle Solutions is inking its own deal. The gas services company announced that its first Nacelle Goalie, a gas distribution system, had arrived in Argentina. A second one is en route. “Argentina is one of the most exciting shale markets in the world, and its operators are committed to figuring out the best way to utilize gas solutions for their operations,” Gov Graney, Nacelle’s co-founder and co-owner, said in a statement. “They are looking to U.S. shale for technology that is already proven at scale. We have spent more than a decade learning how to maximize diesel displacement safely and reliably and we're proud to bring that experience to the Vaca Muerta.”
A short seller claims Fervo is ‘unraveling.’ Its report raises real questions — but reality is more complicated.
Few startups have as much riding on their success as Fervo Energy. To many concerned about climate change, the company, which taps underground heat to generate electricity, represents a source of hope for a clean energy future because it promises to produce carbon-free power around the clock, unlike wind and solar.
Now that Fervo has gone public, however, it’s opened itself up to new scrutiny about whether it can deliver on its promise. In early October, a short seller called Morpheus Research published what it presented as blockbuster findings that Fervo was “unraveling” and that its first commercial project was “destined for failure.”
The report alleged that Fervo struggled with declining temperatures at its pilot project and is facing water loss issues and trouble accessing transmission at its first commercial plant.
Fervo’s stock, which debuted at $27 per share, was already down to $14.33 prior to the report’s publication after rising interest rates drove a broader market pullback from clean energy stocks. The market also appeared to react after the company told investors in August that its transmission partners “are managing unique circumstances in 2027 that may result in Fervo being curtailed for a period of time.”
Since the Morpheus report came out, the stock has sunk another 30%. This may have enriched the short seller — it makes money by betting that a stock is overvalued — so its claims deserve deeper scrutiny. I spent the past week talking with geothermal power experts about whether the report’s findings had any merit.
The community of people with knowledge of the subject is small, however, and almost everyone, it seems, is invested in Fervo’s success — if not financially, then emotionally. It’s hard to overstate how much people want this company to succeed. The report had clearly sent a wave of anxiety through the sector, with a founder of a different company expressing worry that it could spook investors away from geothermal altogether.
Fervo told me it was “carefully reviewing the claims” in the report and believes they “reflect a short seller’s selective and outcome-driven characterizations of early-stage pilot data. Our disclosures to investors and regulators, and our reporting to state agencies, remain the appropriate record of how our projects are performing.” Morpheus did not respond to a request for comment.
The consensus among the people I talked to was that the short seller took many of the known unknowns about Fervo’s technology and played them up as though the company was engaged in a cover-up. They largely discounted the issues Morpheus raised about Fervo’s pilot site, but acknowledged that there were real, if unsurprising, questions about the commercial plant.
“This report does not tell me anything that I did not know beforehand around the challenges enhanced geothermal systems need to address,” Mike O’Connor, the director of the Mountain West Geothermal Consortium, of which Fervo is an advisor, told me. O’Connor worked at the Department of Energy under the Biden administration and was a lead author of the agency’s “Pathways to Commercial Liftoff” report on next-generation geothermal power.
To understand how Fervo’s technology is supposed to work, imagine sticking two straws into a hot sponge and then shooting cold water down one of them. The water flows into the pores of the sponge, soaks up its heat, and then travels out of the other straw. Fervo is doing the geological equivalent, drilling deep underground to where the rock is very hot, and then drilling horizontally to break it up and create “pores” for water to pass through. The company pumps water down into those pores through an injection well, the water absorbs heat from the rock, and then travels back to the surface via separate “production” wells. The hot water enters Fervo’s power plant where it’s used to create steam and spin a turbine.
When O’Connor referenced the known challenges with enhanced geothermal systems, he was talking about water loss and “thermal decline,” or when the rock begins to lose heat. Fervo’s system is designed to prevent water loss to the atmosphere and recycle the same water through the plant continuously. Water can still be lost underground, however, if not all of what is pumped down is recaptured by the system. There is also uncertainty about how much water you can pump through a given system before it starts to permanently lose heat.
The Morpheus report claims Fervo is struggling with both of these issues more than the company is letting on. It relies on Fervo’s own disclosures, additional data the company submitted to Nevada regulators, and interviews with an unspecified number of anonymous former employees to make the case.
For example, it zeroes in on an incident from March 2024 when public data appear to show that Fervo increased the amount of water it pumped through its small 3-megawatt pilot project in Nevada, known as Project Red, and saw a stark drop in temperatures. The report juxtaposes this with a September 2024 social media post from Fervo’s CEO Tim Latimer, who said the company has “observed zero thermal decline to date” at the pilot project, accompanied by a temperature chart with a straight line hovering around 345 degrees Fahrenheit.
Morpheus alleged that Fervo tried to hide this event, but everyone I spoke to felt the short seller read the data wrong. Greg Leveille, the former chief technology officer of ConocoPhillips, and now works as a geothermal energy consultant, provided a simple explanation for the March 2024 event on his website. Morpheus’ analysis was based on monthly data reported to Nevada regulators. When Leveille looked at daily temperature data Fervo published recently, however, he deduced that the company had temporarily stopped flowing water through the system in March 2024, causing the fluid temperature to drop to the temperature of the cold outside air. Such operational decisions aren’t captured in the monthly averages reported by the regulators.
Fervo confirmed to me that Leveille’s interpretation was accurate.
Morpheus goes on to warn that “thermal decline at Project Red has now accelerated to an even faster rate of 24°F per year,” despite Fervo’s claim in its May 2026 IPO statement that its pilot plant “has not experienced the kind of premature thermal decline that has long plagued traditional geothermal projects.” The report includes a chart with data from Nevada regulators showing that production temperatures fell about 2 degrees per month between November 2025 and May 2026.
When I asked Fervo about this, a company spokesperson told me, “Our published data clearly demonstrates that there have not been rapid early declines in temperature at Project Red,” referring me to a blog post the company published in April. The post does acknowledge a “slight temperature decrease” at the end of the pilot project’s life, but says it is “consistent with the gradual, expected onset of the decline phase that reservoir models predict well in advance.”
O’Connor, of the geothermal consortium, argued that Project Red was essentially a science project — a site for research and development. “It’s not designed the way it should be if you actually care about long-term production,” he said.
The more concerning part of the Morpheus report, according to O’Connor and other sources I spoke to, was its statements from former employees about water loss at the company’s first commercial project, Cape Station, in Utah.
Project Red lost water at a pretty steady rate of 20% to 30% per month throughout its operation. Fervo disclosed this and said it was expected due to the pilot plant’s simpler two-well design. Latimer has asserted that the company targets 99% water retention at its commercial plants “where there is a network of production wells surrounding injection wells.” Fervo also argued that the water wasn’t lost, per se, but remained “within the same hydrogeologic formation, supporting pressure maintenance and long-term productivity.”
Fervo has been more tight-lipped about water loss at Cape Station, however. Morpheus points to a 2024 paper in which the company published 24 hours of production data from a test at the commercial site and left out water loss data. The report quotes two former employees who said the results “weren’t good” and that the water wasn’t behaving the way the company expected. When I asked Fervo about this, it pointed me to an investor presentation published in September that reported it had measured a 90% water retention rate at a “triplet” well test at Cape Station and continues to model 99% retention for the complete, “full field” design.
The report also highlights a debate in the expert community over whether water that leaves Fervo’s system will return to the aquifer Fervo is drawing from, as the company argues — or vanish off in another direction. Fervo’s water rights in Utah are premised on “non-consumptive” use, so if it starts drawing more water than expected, it could run into trouble.
“That’s the big controversy, and that’s where the snake oil can go both ways,” Peter Malin, a seismologist and chief scientist at the energy consulting firm Enegis, said when I asked him about the report’s water-loss sections. “Until the actual data are let out, I couldn’t say one way or another.”
“I think this report is showing, to some degree, the ramifications of being a public company,” O’Connor said. He believes Fervo’s explanation for water loss at Project Red, he told me, but added that it’s notable that the company hasn’t yet disclosed water loss data from Cape Station. “Disclosing more operational data is going to be an important milestone for the company.”
Fervo did not respond to questions about whether it plans to disclose more water loss data from Cape Station or what it means if water loss is higher than expected.
The Morpheus report raises a few other concerns related to project costs and seismicity, but the only one the outside experts I spoke with shared concern about was Fervo’s difficulty getting interconnection and transmission rights for planned expansions of Cape Station. The company has offtake agreements with utilities in California that depend on transmission access it doesn’t currently have locked in. This is, of course, an issue that the entire power market is dealing with, and one that Congress is trying to solve with a new transmission and permitting reform bill.
Christopher Dendrinos, an analyst at RBC Capital Markets, issued a bullish research note projecting long-term confidence in Fervo after the Morpheus report came out, but conceded that “potential transmission availability and timing is one of the bigger threats to rapidly scaling operations.” (RBC Capital Markets has provided investment banking and other services to Fervo and co-managed the company’s initial public offering.)
I asked Dendrinos about the lack of data from Cape Station, and he shrugged it off. The project only just started commercial operations in late September, he said, so the company doesn’t have real production data yet.
“Everyone’s entitled to have their own opinion on what they see as being de-risked or not de-risked,” he said. “It really just comes down to, do you trust the management team’s expectations, or do you not?”
This transcript has been automatically generated.
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Robinson Meyer:
Hello, it’s Wednesday, October 21, and the midterm elections are in two weeks here in the United States. Of course, every midterms, the focus is on Congress. And so you have heard a lot — and you are going to hear a lot — about the House races that matter and the Senate races that matter and what all of it could mean for the next presidential election.
But the thing is, during the midterms, there are a lot of important state races, too. And while they may not matter as directly to national politics, or may not seem at least to be as important as national politics, they do matter and are very important to our national emissions — and, by the way, to the country’s energy policy. In fact, a lot of the most important decisions about, say, your local electricity mix, or how you get your energy, or how the local utility are run, all happen at the state level, either in the state house itself, or at the Public Service Commission, which regulates utilities, and other monopolies.
So today, just as we did in the run-up to the 2024 election, we are talking to someone who specializes in looking at those state-level climate races that matter. Caroline Spears is the founder and executive director of Climate Cabinet. It’s an organization that selects and highlights the most important state-level races for climate policy. We talk about what's at stake this election, what state races might matter the most, and what races to watch on the night of to see how things are going. It's a fun, quick episode. I'm Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap News, and it's all coming up on Shift Key.
Caroline Spears, welcome to Shift Key.
Caroline Spears:
Thanks for having me.
Robinson Meyer:
Thanks so much for coming back. I feel like this is becoming a regular segment. It's funny, the midterms were approaching, and I was like, “We have to get Climate Cabinet back in.”
Caroline Spears:
Listen, see you every two years, Rob. Lovely to be here.
Robinson Meyer:
Exactly. As I just mentioned, we had you on and talked about Climate Cabinet right before the 2024 election of blessed memory. Can you just give us a reminder of what Climate Cabinet is, for people who haven't heard about it before, what you guys do and what makes you different?
Caroline Spears:
Yes. OK, so at Climate Cabinet, what we do is, we support state and local officials across the country who are great on clean energy and they're great on climate. And we help them win their election. After the election, we also have people in the state capital with them every day as they take votes on some of the biggest climate issues in the country. So that's what we do at Climate Cabinet. If you're familiar with the movie Moneyball, it's a little bit like that. These are under-the-radar people running for these really important offices across the country who get overlooked because they're not in Washington, D.C., and they're not running for the U.S. Senate, but they're still really important. And together, they make up the team that will kind of right the ship on clean energy and climate policy in the U.S.
Robinson Meyer:
When you Google “Climate Cabinet,” the first description is Moneyball meets climate elections or Moneyball meets climate politics. And I was going to ask, I mean, one of the ideas of Moneyball is, as you just said, that there are these diamonds in the rough, right? That there are these underappreciated, undervalued races or, I mean, in the case of baseball, players out there who aren't appreciated. Has that gotten harder or easier since you started Climate Cabinet at this point six years ago?
Caroline Spears:
Yeah, six years ago. What I think has been really exciting over the last six years is we've seen more and more attention on this level of the ballot. So when I talk about something like a state energy chair or a public service commission race or land commission race, I'm actually starting to see the types of offices that we've focused on in the past get more and more attention over the last few years. That's such a positive. And I hope that trend keeps going.
Robinson Meyer:
We are two weeks out from this election. I want to get into specific races in a second, but how are you thinking about a climate cabinet?
Caroline Spears:
A midterm election, first and foremost, is usually voters show up to the polls. It's a report card on how the current president is doing. So that's the first thing I'm looking for. The second thing I'm really looking at across the country this year is what issues are bubbling up for people. And, Rob, it's not every year that energy is the top issue, but I was knocking doors in Bucks County last week. People were bringing up utility bills on the doors.
So that's the other thing I'm looking at, is what issues are really bubbling up for people. And how do those issues tie to their view of the presidency? What we have at stake is obviously the U.S. Senate and the U.S. House. It's control of the federal government. Over 30 governors are also up. So almost every governor in the country. And then we have control of every state House. So it goes all the way down the ballot. And that's what those two national themes are going to feed into. Who holds power on election night?
Robinson Meyer:
I think that right now, obviously, these elections do not seem like they're going to go well for the president, for the Republican Party. There's some question of, you know, are Democrats going to perform as well as the polls say they're going to perform? Are they going to outperform the polls? There's like changes in the electorate, even over the past 10 or eight years, that have made us think now Democrats might overperform because they're the more highly educated party, specifically during midterms. But what to you is like still uncertain about this this election?
Caroline Spears:
One thing we've been tracking since the ‘24 election is how both parties are doing in the special elections and then how both parties are doing in last year's elections. And so far, generally, what we're seeing is a national environment that looks much like 2018, but a little bit more favorable to Dems. So that's kind of what we're seeing from the specials, from the 2025 races.
The big uncertainty and my big unknown going into this election is what is going to happen with Trump's base specifically. There's a lot of anger right now about rising prices. You know, he ran on this message to lower costs, and costs have done anything except go down. We saw a lot of that in the specials, but specials are so different. It's a really different group of people that show up. That's my big uncertainty going into the midterms is what's going to happen with the base. And I've seen polling that's all over the place about that. And I kind of don't know how to make heads or tails of it.
Robinson Meyer:
It almost sounds like then the question is, do these people who've been voting for Trump in the presidential elections at this point for three times in a row, like, do they show up and kind of provide some deep shielding for Republican candidates? Or do they show up and they're so angry at Trump that they decide to vote for the non-incumbent party because they're pissed at the Iran war, they're pissed at prices, they feel like they voted for Trump to get certain policies and they're not getting them.
Caroline Spears:
I think the first piece to just know going into the midterms is Trump's base shows up less during the midterms. That's just baked in from the start. What I'm interested to look at on election night is, do people just not show up at all? That's really where I think this is going to go. I don't think we're going to see a lot of people who switch parties. Not so many. But do people just stay home and not show up? I think we're going to see some of that this midterm election. The scale of that. That's my big uncertainty is, I know we're going to see a little bit less. But I just don't know by how much. And a lot of these races that we work on and that I think about all the time are decided by like 3 percentage points. So just a small number of people not showing up means a big change.
Robinson Meyer:
What are some of the big states or state-level races that you are thinking about right now?
Caroline Spears:
The two buckets that I'm really thinking about for this midterms election are state control, who controls state governments by the end of election night. And I'm also thinking about a basket of races that I call weird state whites. Those are public service commissions. I think about state Supreme Courts. I think about land commissioners. So those are the two buckets that I'm thinking about. When it comes to states, just to level set in what state control means, you got the governor and you got the House and the Senate. Very standard. So it's just like the federal. When you look at how many seats that is, 7,383 state-led seats in America. So there's just thousands of them that control how states pass policy and how they don't pass policy. Out of those 7,000 seats, 22 are the difference between five new Dem trifectas.
Robinson Meyer:
Wow.
Caroline Spears:
Big map, but just a handful of seats are going to control the outcome in November.
Robinson Meyer:
And why is that? Is that because each state has gerrymandered its own state level district so much that you wind up with? I mean, this happens in the House of Representatives at the national level, too. You wind up with these like the all of House control winds up coming down to like the same 25 or 30 races over and over. But is that because basically there's a version of that in every state? Or is it just because the geography is already sort of polarized to the number of places even on a non-gerrymandered map that are competitive is truly small?
Caroline Spears:
It's a combination of things, but I would say redistricting, especially in the decade of the 2010s, has just gotten more and more extreme. It started in the 2000s. It's really gotten more and more extreme. We have a federal government has not stepped in at all on the gerrymandering. And these state legislatures, who controls the state, they also redraw on the map for the House of Representatives. So they're enormously powerful and they've used that power to sort of insulate their current majority from the voters, essentially. That's what gerrymandering and redistricting are doing in these states. So that's why you've got a very narrow map, like you said, very similar dynamic to the House of Representatives.
Robinson Meyer:
At the national level in the U.S., right, we have the House of Representatives, which is reelected every two years and through districts that are redrawn every 10 years until recently. We can get into that. But districts that are redrawn on a regular basis. Then we have the Senate.
Caroline Spears:
They're supposed to be drawn every 10 years. You're right. Legally, they should only be drawn every 10 years. Is that happening now? Not at all.
Robinson Meyer:
No, no, there's a whole disaster.
Caroline Spears:
Exactly.
Robinson Meyer:
But aside from that, then we have the Senate, which is every six years along state lines. And those districts don't change, obviously, because senators are elected on statewide boundaries. One funny thing about states as they run today is that the Supreme Court has spent the middle of the 20th century basically getting rid of the state-level senators. So for instance, there's one person, one vote guaranteed at the state-level government now across different districts. You can't have some people mapped into different districts. Are there still like state assemblies with different terms? Like, does a state legislature and a state assembly have two different term lengths?
Caroline Spears:
Oh, yeah, we've got different term lengths. Rob, it's like every I can find you an edge case. We have a great data science team at Climate Cabinet. And the number of edge cases they have to deal with when they talk about state legislatures is out of control. West Virginia has per-district different numbers of state house members per house district. So in some districts it'll be two. Some districts there'll be five. I mean, every state truly writes their own rules. And that's how you end up with a thing like the Texas Senate has about 30 people and the Vermont House has over 400 people. And that's how you end up with a situation.
Robinson Meyer:
Yeah. Let's talk about those states then. So you're tracking five states that could switch into being Democrat trifectas. What are those states and what would it mean for their climate-level policy and governance?
Caroline Spears:
So I'm really looking at five seats that have a couple hundred state legislature seats, but if 22 of them flip, we have a much bigger opportunity to pass clean energy and climate legislation in 27. So I'm thinking about Minnesota and Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Arizona. Those are kind of the five when you're thinking about big changes in state-level control from a trifecta perspective. Together, those states would be roughly the world's ninth-largest climate polluter if they were their own country. So big climate impact.
Robinson Meyer:
What kind of policies are on the table if they have a democratic trifecta in those states? Obviously, the states go into this with different state-level policies already. And so it's hard to maybe talk about different policies that are on the table. But like, what are candidates or legislatures talking about?
Caroline Spears:
From first principles, you can look at what's happening in those states already. So take a state like Arizona. I've said this in the past: Arizona is getting better. It still has fewer solar jobs than many other states, like Massachusetts, for example. And it's really hot. Arizona should be doing way better. Arizona should be an energy exporter. They should be kind of a breadbasket of solar energy. So that's the potential on the table. And instead, they've had a series of governments that have sort of blocked progress on clean energy in the state. That's a great example of kind of what happens when you don't have people who are thinking about the clean energy economy and actually actively trying to block it at the state. So that's kind of the two paths diverging in a yellow wood. You can also look at, in 2022, Minnesota and Michigan flipped to a trifecta. They both passed 100% clean energy. Whereas Arizona, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin didn't, they don't have that law in the books. So that's kind of the two options.
Robinson Meyer:
So it also, I would imagine, is hard to talk about exactly what these legislatures are going to do because we don't. They haven't been elected yet. And we don't know exactly how far their governor would push or how far their legislative teams would push until they win, just like we don't know what this incoming Congress will do.
Caroline Spears:
We have some idea, though. Like Governor Shapiro has the lightning plan that would, you know, Pennsylvania currently only gets 3% of its energy from renewable energy. It would increase renewable energy in the state, solar, batteries, etc. He can't get that thing through the legislature right now. He's struggling to pass parts of it he can do, but he's really struggling to pass that whole bill. So we do have some indication of some of these states already have incumbent governors. They're trying to do stuff. They're getting stopped by their legislature. So we know flipping the legislature is the path forward.
Robinson Meyer:
So let's talk about the state-level weird elections. These are things like public utility commissions, I would imagine. What are the big, weird state races that you're tracking? Maybe the names at the bottom of the ballot that people wouldn't otherwise be paying attention to.
Caroline Spears:
Yes. And I'm sure everybody else has had this thought where you get to the bottom of the ballot and you're asked to vote for justice of the peace. That's where I really start struggling.
Robinson Meyer:
When I was a first-time voter, I was voting in Illinois elections. And at the end of every Illinois ballot, you're just asked to, like, vote on, you know, pick several dozen judges. Here's a long list. Pick the good judges. How do you make sure that voters don't just stop voting when they get down to these names at the bottom of the ballot who they don't recognize for positions they may not know?
Caroline Spears:
So there's this term in elections that we call down-ballot drop-off, which is people filling out the top of the ballot for, for example, top of the ballot for, for example, president or Senate and just not filling out the rest of the ballot. One of the things that we're trying this year, this has been a big problem at the Public Service Commission. We are losing winnable Public Service Commission races because of down-ballot drop-off and solely because of down-ballot drop-off. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, some of those offices are really important for clean energy. So I think of something like a land commissioner office, an elected office in the state of New Mexico, Juan Sanchez is running for the land commissioner race there. He was our first endorsed candidate of this cycle. And the land commissioner oversees millions of acres of New Mexico public land. And it's the steward of those public lands for this generation of New Mexicans, but also generations to come. So that's siting and permitting. That's natural land access. There's a wide variety of things that the land commissioner covers critical for climate. So that's one of these weird statewides that I'm looking at.
Robinson Meyer:
What about some of these public utility races? The Public Utility Commission, as we've discussed in the show, not often elected, not elected in many states. Yes. But in a few states, voters do go pick their public utility commission. These are the people who govern and oversee, at least in theory, the local utility. What PUCs are up this year and what are they talking about doing?
Caroline Spears:
The first three public service commissions I'm looking at that are elected this year and really top of mind are Arizona, Georgia, and Louisiana. Those are the big three for the year. I think Arizona is very interesting this year because we already had a utility election in Arizona earlier this year. Turning Point USA got very involved at the Salt River Project, which is a smaller kind of utility board within Arizona in the Phoenix area. For the first time, clean energy candidates flipped the board of the Salt River Project. Now it's like, if that was a small utility election in Arizona, now we have the big one. So that was just a trial run. Turning Point USA was very upfront. That was their trial run as well. They lost those races. They're trying it again. They actually primaried a Republican incumbent. So they have one of their candidates running for the Arizona Corporation Commission. And there's two seats up in Arizona. They've been very challenging from a few perspectives. One of them is that the current kind of 0-5 anti-climate majority on the commission has sort of thrown everything at the solar industry in particular. They've lowered the renewable portfolio standard almost out of spite because Arizona had already passed it. It's like a statute from a while ago. They've raised rates on rooftop solar. They've raised people's electricity bills something like four times in two years. So it'll be an interesting one.
Robinson Meyer:
You said it was 5-0 against clean energy. Are these partisan candidates in the Arizona PUC? And so is it 5-0 Republican controlled? Or is it just there are anti-clean energy Democrats on there?
Caroline Spears:
Currently, it is 0-5. All five seats are held by Republicans. There's also a fight going on within the Republican Party over the Arizona Corporation Commission, where you have kind of Freedom Caucus people trying to primary Tea Party people. So there's a Tea Party Freedom Caucus knockout, dragout in the ACC. We saw that in the primary where one of the, I'm going to call them a Tea Party Republican, was knocked out by the Turning Point USA Freedom Caucus member. So I think it's not enough to say it's Republican-Democrat. You have to go one level deeper to know that there's also this civil war going on within the Arizona Republican Party right now over the future of the party.
And we see that at the ACC as well. I mean, what's been wild about Arizona, and this is a down-ballot drop-off, why it's so critical, is in the last decade, if you look at how Arizona elections have gone, Democrats have picked up the governor's mansion, they've picked up the attorney general, they've picked up one Senate seat and then the next Senate seat. In those same elections, they have lost multiple seats on the Corporation Commission, at the PUC. And it's because of down-ballot drop-off. It's because there's a group of voters, and you can find where folks are by precinct, and you can kind of put all those precincts in a table. There's a group of voters who just aren't filling out that section of the ballot.
So one thing we're trying this year, this is an experiment. I'll let you know how it goes after the election, is we took the top 20 or so precincts where the down-bought drop-off is the worst. And in 10 of those precincts, we're going to try to do a few things to help down-bought drop-off get better. And in 10, we're not going to do anything. And we're going to A-B test it and see how it goes. This is the type of thing we have to start figuring out. It's getting much better on in order to start winning these public service commission races systematically over time.
Robinson Meyer:
In the Arizona PUC, to the degree you can talk about it, especially on the Republican side, is this an election that is primarily being fought over bills and all three types of candidate here? Let's say like the Tea Party Republican, the Freedom Caucus Republican or the TPUSA Republican and the Democrat are all saying, we're going to make your bills go down. Or is this election fought closer to like what we see in presidential elections where the Republicans are actively like, we think fossil fuels should be a bigger part of the power grid in Arizona and we're going to do what we can to like boost fossil fuels.
Caroline Spears:
There's been a little bit of both, I think, from a primary messaging standpoint on the campaign. Like, you can dig into every candidate's long history of talking points, and you can hear candidates getting excited about bringing coal back, that type of thing. You know, I was in Phoenix the week before the Salt River Project vote. And what really stuck out from that is everyone's talking points are almost the exact same. They're all lowering bills. They're all anti-data center. So from a campaign messaging standpoint, there's not a bunch of differences. Again so confusing for voters because you have some people who are running who've been an incumbent for years and have raised rates on people. And all of their campaign signage, very similar to everybody else.
Robinson Meyer:
The Salt River Project was a fossil power plant? What was it?
Caroline Spears:
So the Salt River Project, we're about to get into a little bit of wonkiness on the Arizona utility side.
Robinson Meyer:
That's okay. That's okay. That's what we're here for.
Caroline Spears:
That's what we're here for. So the Salt River Project, it's kind of like a mini elected public service commission. It's a water board and an electric board. It's one of those kind of holdovers that was set up about 100 years ago, and we still have it.
Robinson Meyer:
It's like a public authority, basically?
Caroline Spears:
Yes.
Robinson Meyer:
So it's kind of like a pre-New Deal government within the government.
Caroline Spears:
Don't quote me on exactly when it was set up, but it was set up so long ago, Rob, that to cast a vote for the Salt River Project, the number of votes you get is the number of acres you own.
Robinson Meyer:
Oh, my gosh. Okay.
Caroline Spears:
Yeah. Great. So, right. Not our most democratic institution in the U.S.. And there's been interesting legislation to make it a democratic institution and say one person, one voice, not one acre, one voice.
Robinson Meyer:
Yes.
Caroline Spears:
That has all gotten stalled out in this current legislature. So you have a little bit of these different levels of government fighting with each other over who gets to control what.
Robinson Meyer:
The Salt River Project has like authority over a particular set of state jurisdictions, like power plants and water and but like not all of them, just some of them.
Caroline Spears:
Just some of them. Yes. Yes. Power plants and water. So the benefit of flipping the Salt River project is that you can push for more clean energy projects to be built. You can think of the Arizona Corporation Commission, the statewide PUC, as like a bigger version.
Robinson Meyer:
What's happening in Georgia? Because I remember last year was a big deal. Democrats won the state level Georgia races in the PUC is a big deal because it kind of wrapped up a lot of issues we had started talking about then into one story. It was a rebellion against Southern Company or Monopoly Utilities or Georgia Power. Really, it was a rebellion against what were beginning to be understood by voters as maybe data center costs. Where does this race stand? Because last year, those races got a ton of attention. How does what's happening this year connect to what happened last year?
Caroline Spears:
Last year was really the canary in the coal mine. We saw a few candidates who ran on electricity bills and really overperformed their fundamentals. It was true in Georgia with those public service commission races. It was also true in some state races we were involved in last year as well. We saw that kind of across the country where we had a few candidates.
Robinson Meyer:
It's kind of a New Jersey story too.
Caroline Spears:
Yeah, it was in New Jersey. There was a candidate, John McAuliffe, who flipped Loudoun County, a Loudoun County district. He overperformed by about 10 points. And if you can pick one county in America that says data centers. It's Loudoun County.
Robinson Meyer:
Yes, that and horses. Yes.
Caroline Spears:
Yeah, beautiful place. So what we saw at the Georgia Public Service Commission was absolutely an indictment on energy bills, energy costs. Now, last year, the Georgia Public Service Commission candidates who won, the Democratic candidates, won by 60-40, which was astonishing in the state. I don't expect those margins again. I think it's going to be much tighter this year.
Robinson Meyer:
If they win on this PUC, it would give Democrats majority on the Georgia PUC. Is that right?
Caroline Spears:
That's right. It's a majority-making race. In Arizona, there are only two seats up. It's a seat of five. We're not looking at a majority this year in AZ. That's not on the table. Georgia majority is on the table this year. It's very contested. That's a big fight this year.
Robinson Meyer:
nd you mentioned Louisiana at the last big fight. Just what is the terrain in Louisiana? Because I think if there's any state where it would seem like Democrats would have the hardest time winning, it would be a Louisiana state-level election.
Caroline Spears:
I'm really interested in what happens in Louisiana. You've sort of had this a little bit of people crossing party lines to building kind of the first pieces of consumer protections. I'm interested to see how candidates perform independent of their party. I am watching those. And there's this kind of knockout drag out with the legislature and the governor there, too. And we've seen this, Rob, in race after race. If one of these weird offices gets a little too ahead of the governor or the legislature, they will come in and try to strip authority away. Louisiana is the story of a power struggle. People are trying to call a constitutional convention to limit the power of the public service commissioners. There's a big political split between the POC and the legislature. And we've seen that in Arizona, too. That's a classic where your trifecta, your governor, your House and your Senate, if other offices throughout the state, get a little too opposed from where the trifecta is, the trifecta will come in and try to strip authority away. So that's something I always watch when I'm thinking of a race that's not a governor, a House or a Senate is what is the probability that the legislature will come in and try to take authority back?
Robinson Meyer:
I mean, we were talking about it a little bit in the context of Arizona, but what are the stakes in any of these PUC elections for climate change?
Caroline Spears:
They regulate the entire electricity market in their state. So when you're thinking about what do we want to build, how fast do we want to build it? What types of energy does a utility build? How fast? They have a lot of authority over speed and permitting. And they have a lot of authority, which usually they don't use, on saying, hey, monopoly utility, you have to let independent power producers in. Normally these public service commissions, whether they're elected or appointed, are captured by the utilities that they regulate utility capture of public service commissions is kind of pervasive and bad, because it leads to higher costs for people, and so we've seen that story play out over and over again maybe the whole electricity market. Let's actually to just go one level more it's important for what types of electricity that we're going to build. And do we build clean or do we build fossil?
Robinson Meyer:
I mean, does it even change what the utilities ask to build? Because if they know they're going to have a friendlier majority for renewables or a friendlier majority for gas, like does it affect what they even proposed to the PUC in the first place?
Caroline Spears:
Absolutely. You see, for example, in Arizona and Arizona Public Service, when they think they're going to get a little pushback from other areas of the government, they'll come out with voluntary clean energy standards. They're like, don't codify it. We have voluntary clean energy standards. And then when people who are opposed to clean energy take power, all of a sudden those voluntary standards just evaporate into thin air.
Robinson Meyer:
They go away.
Caroline Spears:
Who could say where they went? And I would say cost too. You know, you have some of these public service commissions approving things like quick financing. There's all these financing hacks the utilities can use to make people pay more than they should for the electricity that they have.
Robinson Meyer:
How can these elections go wrong? Because we were talking before the show, like Arizona, I think, used to have a very pro-clean energy PUC. Obviously, now it doesn't. It's 0-5, as you were saying, against clean energy or Republican-controlled. Is there a risk that playing up the climate bona fides of these races kind of deters voters from choosing those candidates because voters actually just care about costs and reigning in their local monopoly? They might care about climate change, but if a candidate talks about climate change, it might be more of a signal that the candidate is willing to put other things before cost.
Caroline Spears:
I mean, I can tell you what our most successful candidates did last year and this year is, they're talking about cost.
Robinson Meyer:
Yeah.
Caroline Spears:
That's who's successful. So when we think about those Georgia Public Service Commission elections last year, Peter Hubbard and Alicia Johnson ran a bills-first campaign. How can we lower your household bills? And so that's who's being successful in these races. And it's because our best candidates are the people who talk to voters a lot, door-knock a lot. They're hearing what people want to talk about. And they're saying, “Hey, how can I use this office to actually be helpful there?” So, yeah, I mean — that's a good campaign, which is: What do people care about? How am I going to deliver for that?
Robinson Meyer:
Yeah. There's only been that small set of elections since affordability really became a national issue and an issue that I think Democrats felt comfortable leading after the 2024 election. We've only had the ‘25 elections. And I guess in ‘25, you could say Mikey Sherrill in New Jersey. I realize I keep bringing up New Jersey, but it's New Jersey and Virginia that are the only two off-year cycles. And I guess actually in both of those states, we've seen the Democrats who then won in the ‘25 election put affordability right at the center of their governance. But there's not a lot of other track record to point to.
Caroline Spears:
Yes. What I will add to that, though, is usually when you're going into an election year, again, a good successful candidate is talking to voters a lot. You will see legislative action that kind of presages what you think is going to happen in ‘27. We've seen so many data center bills, Rob. We're all drowning in data center bills. Over 300 were introduced in the first six weeks of 2026. It's been wild. The big thing that a lot of states have gotten passed, not that many, but just like the modal data center bill has been rolling back the tax breaks the data centers have received, which is a good start, but doesn't even get close to where voters want politicians to be on data centers. So we're going to see a lot more of that. If this year was crazy, next year will be even more so.
Robinson Meyer:
I mean, we're looking forward to covering all of that at Heatmap, obviously. How do you talk to voters or even donors about this climate-hushing trend? I started to see Democrats talk about climate hushing or started to see discussion of Democrats talking less about climate. We've been tracking this at Heatmap. I think one interesting dynamic is this is not a moderate issue. This is not a progressive issue. We really see both sides of the party doing it, both sides of the party emphasizing affordability or promising they're not going to, as Abdul El-Sayed did, defend or fight for a Green New Deal. How do you interpret that trend within the context of wanting to elect more climate champions to state or local office?
Caroline Spears:
Something that's been true for all of the years in which we've supported climate champions and clean energy champions running for public office is that the best candidates are the ones who... Talk to the most voters and are good at talking to voters and saying, “Hey, what do you want?” How can I be helpful? So let's talk about 2022, a year where climate was really in the zeitgeist. And are we going to get the Inflation Reduction Act? One of my favorite candidates that year was running for a city council ward four. So city council race.
Robinson Meyer:
What city council?
Caroline Spears:
Columbia, Missouri, and he was running for that race and I went to go knock doors, it was like what do you want to talk to voters about what's been really interesting and he was like listen, I ran the largest volunteer services center like anytime anyone did any volunteer activity to help people in the community. I ran that for over a decade, and that's what everybody knows and just mention that on the doors. And you know what? That guy won handily his race. And that was the year in which you'd think climate, you know, it's top of mind. Everyone's talking about it. So it's just always been true that our most successful candidates are the ones who knock a bunch of doors and talk to a bunch of voters and are good at talking about that. That's where I struggle with the whole climate hushing conversation is I'm like, listen, it feels a little bit more theoretical. And like this conversation that's happening online. And not at the doors when you talk to voters. So when I show up, I mentioned I was in Bucks County recently, and I was talking to voters and everyone was talking about cost of living. People independently brought up: “My utility bills are too high, and I think it's from the data center down the road, and I don't like either of those two things, and I want people who have solutions to that.” Four years ago, that same voter, what were they talking about? Probably it wouldn't have been super far off the mark from that. And that's where I struggle with the climate hushing kind of dialogue a little bit because I'm like, I don't know. The best people running for office are always good at listening to voters.
Robinson Meyer:
And relating what they want to do to what voters want to have happen.
Caroline Spears:
Yeah. And as a clean energy industry, does clean energy have solutions to data center costs? Absolutely. Cheapest to grid. There are lots of ways people can put DERs to kind of insulate themselves from rising home prices? How can we make that more accessible? How can we do siting and permitting on clean energy such that people can get power directly into the grid faster and lower people's bills in sort of a rising electricity load environment? So that's what I think about climate hushing, which is I don't think about it at all. I think about what voters want and how we deliver that for them.
Robinson Meyer:
So we're recording this. By the time this episode comes out, we will be less than two weeks out from the election. Now let's cast our mind forward. It's the evening of November 3. What are you looking for on November 3? What are your benchmarks for things going really well for Democrats on Tuesday night or climate champions and things going poorly?
Caroline Spears:
So on election night, I'm looking at a few states. I'm looking at a few candidates in a few states. If I can give you kind of three places that I'm looking at candidates, I'm looking at Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I'm looking at Wisconsin Senate District 21. I'm looking at — this is going to get real wonky real fast — I'm looking at Eileen Albiar's race in the Pennsylvania Senate. I'm looking at Trevor Jung's race in the Wisconsin Senate. I'm looking at Aaron Lieberman's race in the Arizona Senate. And those are my three bellwether candidates to say, hey, how's this night going for our ability to pass clean energy or climate legislation in ‘27?
Robinson Meyer:
And you expect data to come in there faster, or those are just like going to be the bellwethers for each of those states?
Caroline Spears:
No, those will be the bellwethers for each of those states. We don't get a lot of results super fast. People tend to really tally those Senate races, and we have to wait a little bit, which is unfortunate. But those are the bellwethers to figure out whether we have a 2022 kind of era of climate policy, which is a good era for climate policy. We passed a bunch of ones, a bunch of state policy in ‘23 and ‘24.
And then I'm looking at map expansion. So those are the places I'm looking. Bucks County gets consistently talked about. If y'all follow politics, Bucks County is covered a ton. So I'm really looking at the returns there. But thematically, I'm looking for those candidates, and I'm looking for ticket splitting. I'm looking at how much are voters voting for that top section of the ballot and leaving the whole rest of their ballot undone or splitting their vote between parties, within parties. Yeah, ticket splitting is the big one. We're running a bunch of experiments this year on that, which I'm really excited about. What are all of the ways in which we can encourage people to keep filling out their ballot or not skip over the Arizona Corporation Commission? So we're running some experiments on that. And I'm really going to look at ticket splitting on election night.
Robinson Meyer:
We are a nonpartisan podcast, obviously, but let's say there's listeners out there who are like, is it too late to donate to some of these races? This episode will come out on October 21. We'll, of course, stick Climate Cabinet’s link in the show notes. But just like, is it too late to donate to some of these races or can money still be useful to some of these candidates?
Caroline Spears:
It is late, but it's not too late. What we are doing in the last kind of couple weeks of the election is if you go to our website, there's a final few people who we think could really make it over the finish line, but are getting outspent. A lot of our candidates this year are getting outspent about 2 to 1. Yeah. I have a lot of candidates, Rob, who are tied in the polls and getting outspent 2 to 1. I don't love being there right now. That's where we are with a lot of our candidates. That's the difference between a trifecta and not a trifecta. That's kind of what we're looking at.
Robinson Meyer:
Well, we're going to have to leave it there. But Caroline Spears, thank you so much for joining us as always. And we'll see you in 2028.
Caroline Spears:
Thank you. See you soon.